Too powerful? What am I missing... (please help)

[Drowbane]

Back to Wilders a second: A wilder can indeed "one-shot-kill" some enemies, if he uses both his surge ability and the Overchannel feat (which I believe do stack). However, there are significant drawbacks to it, mostly on the side of being lucky or unlucky with the dice. One fix for the original poster might be to suggest a slight (not a lot, but slight) Power points per level decrease for Wilders (and psions, if you use them). That way, they can have their moment of "nova", but pay for it more harshly, and have it be their ONLY moment of glory for the day. Wilders have a lot in common with Warlocks, in that the entire world will look like a nail for the Wilder's "hammer."

Actually, Overchannel and Wild Surge do *not* stack. Which is probably a good thing.

 

[Slaved]

As an example, let's take a tricked out Raging Half Orc Barbarian at 11th level with starting Str 20 (now 22), Weapon Focus, +4 Belt of Giant Strength (16,000 GP) and a +2 Flaming Greatsword (18,000 GP) or more than half his money on two offensive items. His to hit would be +22. He hits AC 26 95% of the time. AC 26 is reasonable at 11th level, but is not especially high.

I skipped over this before so that I could come back to it later. I was not sure if some of the numbers were off or not and I did not want to check then.

Strength 18, +2 from his race, +2 from levels, +4 from his belt, +6 from raging = 32 (+11)

With a +2 sword and weapon focus his damage is 2d6 +2 weapon +16 from strength with a to hit of +25.

Against a foe with an armor class of 26 he is at 95%, 70%, 45% = 2.1 which gives an average damage of 57.8 after taking into account criticals.

With boots of speed and going against a foe with an armor class of 27 he is at 95%, 95%, 70%, 45% = 3.05 which gives an average damage of 83.9 after taking into account criticals.

That is pretty close to the empowered up wilder blast. With a +3 weapon against an armor class of 28 he is at 95%, 95%, 70%, 45% = 3.05 which gives an average damage of 87.2.

If he takes the rage feat that gives him +2 strength, +2 constitution, and -2 to armor class and has that +3 weapon then against an armor class of 29 we get an average damage of 97.3.

I think that is far enough ahead of the 88.5 average damage empowered energy ray. This barbarian retains his lead until the armor class gets to 31 or higher, with improved critical that becomes until 33 or higher.

 

[wildstarsreach]

This is false.

Sorcerers are the strongest base spellcasting class (spontaneous metamagic puts them over the top) once they get past level 3.

They are also the best comparison base class against Psions since both classes have spontaneous abilities. Comparing non-spontaneous casters with spontaneous manifesters is nearly impossible. It is two different niches being filled.

Sorcerers have the least spells known (i.e. a form of utility) of the base spellcasting classes, but that does not mean they are not powerful. They are very powerful. Even on the odd levels when they cannot yet cast the next higher level spell, they have spells to burn and metamagic ones at that.

Wizards and Divine base casters often have prepared spells which are not applicable to the situation. In a way, that actually gives these casters less utility rather than more. The real utility advantage they have is when they know ahead of time exactly (or even generally) what they need to prepare for. Sure, they might be more capable in those situations than a Sorcerer, but they are often less capable in surprise situations (which many challenging situations should be in a game).

As Karinsdad has said, the assuption that the sorcerer is a weak base class is wrong. It is the best class to compare to the psion. They have about the same number. Sorcerers get free scaling where as Psions pay for their dice of damage, they can unlearn and learn new spells if a spell is no longer necessary. The power in psionics where you could change powers is usually banned from most games that I have been in.

 

[KarinsDad]

I skipped over this before so that I could come back to it later. I was not sure if some of the numbers were off or not and I did not want to check then.

Strength 18, +2 from his race, +2 from levels, +4 from his belt, +6 from raging = 32 (+11)

With a +2 sword and weapon focus his damage is 2d6 +2 weapon +16 from strength with a to hit of +25.

Against a foe with an armor class of 26 he is at 95%, 70%, 45% = 2.1 which gives an average damage of 57.8 after taking into account criticals.

With boots of speed and going against a foe with an armor class of 27 he is at 95%, 95%, 70%, 45% = 3.05 which gives an average damage of 83.9 after taking into account criticals.

That is pretty close to the empowered up wilder blast. With a +3 weapon against an armor class of 28 he is at 95%, 95%, 70%, 45% = 3.05 which gives an average damage of 87.2.

If he takes the rage feat that gives him +2 strength, +2 constitution, and -2 to armor class and has that +3 weapon then against an armor class of 29 we get an average damage of 97.3.

I think that is far enough ahead of the 88.5 average damage empowered energy ray. This barbarian retains his lead until the armor class gets to 31 or higher, with improved critical that becomes until 33 or higher.

Yup. I forgot about Greater Rage and I forgot to add in the +2 for the weapon. You forgot the Flaming damage.

But, the Wilder has no magic items yet. The Barbarian has 3.

The Wilder has one feat. The Barbarian has 2. You are discussing throwing a 3rd one on.

You did not allow Surging Euphoria to be multiplied by the critical, but all singularly added damage gets multiplied by criticals. It is damage dice that do not get multiplied.

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

So, you were at 97.3 average damage having primo items and using up 46,000 GP out of the Barbarian's 66,000 GP total. Assuming not just awesome stats (an 18), but great items too.


Let's see where the 11th level Human Wilder ends up with his 5 feats and a starting 18 Cha: Expanded Knowledge Energy Missile, Privileged Energy Cold, Empowered Power, Psionic Meditation, Psicrystal Affinity.

He can do a max +4 level Empowered Cold Energy Ray for (95%) * 1.05 (critical) * (13D6+26 +1 Surging Euphoria) * 1.5 = 108.

With Energy Missile instead of Energy Ray, he can do a lot more damage.

So, he can easily beat out the Barbarian damage-wise for 13 rounds per day.


But at level 12 (just like the Barbarian gained a lot at level 11 with an extra attack per round and Greater Rage), the Wilder goes nuts:

Feat: Expanded Knowledge Energy Current
Power: Solicit Psycrystal

He can do a max +4 level Empowered Cold Energy Energy Current (Fort save, so no Evasion; no partial concealment; no negatives for opponent in combat) for minimum damage of 14D6+28 * 1.5 / 2 = 58 points (if he enervates and opponent saves) to a maximum of 14D6+26 +2 Surging Euphoria * 1.5 = 118 to one opponent and 59 to a second opponent (29 if the second opponent saves) for 5 rounds for 17 PP. He can do this (with an 18 Cha and +2 for levels, no magic items yet) 9 5 round combats in a day.

It matters not if he is dazed because his psicrystal will not be dazed.

That's a range of 2610 to 7965 points of damage in 45 rounds per day with a few PP left over.

So sure, the 12th level Barbarian can get in nearly 3500 points of damage in the same time frame (he only gets the Boots of Speed Haste for 10 rounds, not 45), but that is all the Barbarian can do. The Wilder can manifest other powers, do significant movement, fight with a weapon, drink cure potions, whatever.

But if the Barbarian does other actions, he does less damage. If the Barbarian does any single attacks as opposed to full round attacks, he does less damage.

And the Wilder can increase it to 6 rounds for an extra PP. Or 7 rounds for 2 extra PP, etc. Or in round 2, he can have 2 Energy Currents running and double his damage per round.


At level 15, the Wilder can take Schism and can be attacking 5 opponents per round (2 Energy Currents and a Schism power) if he wants to.

As for opponents resistant or immune to cold, it matters little. The Wilder has 9 combats of these per day. He can afford to change the energy type to do less damage. And there are very few creatures immune to cold.

As for spell resistance, he takes Crystal Shard as well. Not as much damage, but enough.

He's a one trick pony, but a very very good one trick pony.

And that's with no magic items yet. Just feats and powers.


All of this talk about the Wilder only Nova-ing a few times per day and he can do it for 9 combats 5+ rounds each by 12th level. And, I am not a Psionics expert. I'm sure the Gish builder guys can come up with even more nastiness.


Sure, the Barbarian came close at his magical level 11, but at level 12, he fell by the wayside big time all over again.

 

[boolean]

It works really well when your DM overlooks the 'max pp/round=manifester level' rule.

Where is this rule? I can find the rule that limits the number of points that can be spent on a single power, but I don't see any that provide a per round limit.

 

[irdeggman]

Where is this rule? I can find the rule that limits the number of points that can be spent on a single power, but I don't see any that provide a per round limit.

This is a core rule for psionics and serves to provide half of the real limiter to maintain balance (the other being the psionic focus).

ExPsi pg 63

SRD:

Power Point Limit: Some powers allow you to spend more than their base cost to achieve an improved effect, or augment the power. The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level.

 

[irdeggman]

The Wilder can use energy ray 1 time before his opponet is on him. Don't forget teh range of the power. If he uses a metapsionic feat he needs at least a move action to regain his focus. So the melee combatant will be on the wilder after 1 shot (let's assume he has taken 70% of his damage from that attack). The melee combatant (who probably has a higher AC and hit point total than does the wilder) is now dealing damage. Assume 1st round he is only making a single attack because he had to move to reach his target so he is only dealing a limited amount of damage (to a target who can take less damage than he could, usually).

Now the wilder can either manifest on the defensive or take a 5 ft step and manifest (and hope that the melee combatant doesn't have reach - or else pretty much he is in real trouble).

As I have pointed out repeatedly range is extremely important when considering the "power" of a psionic character. The ranges are almost always short or medium. An archer will pretty much put a serious hurt on the psionic character early on before he can effectively deal his damage.

I don't think psionics are "overpowered" they just require the DM to realize how they work and to run his game accordingly - just like he would have to run his game a certain way if the party was predominantly ranged attackers or melee attackers, etc.

Psionics have their own set of weaknesses and these must be understood in order to effectely run a game.

 

[KarinsDad]

This is a core rule for psionics and serves to provide half of the real limiter to maintain balance (the other being the psionic focus).

ExPsi pg 63

SRD:

You quoted the "per power" rule.

You did not quote the "per round" rule like he asked. To my knowledge, there is no "per round" rule.

Given enough standard actions in a round, there is no limit to the number of PP that can be spent within a given round. There is only a limit to the number of swift and standard actions where PP can be spent.

 

[werk]

You quoted the "per power" rule.

You did not quote the "per round" rule like he asked. To my knowledge, there is no "per round" rule.

Given enough standard actions in a round, there is no limit to the number of PP that can be spent within a given round. There is only a limit to the number of swift and standard actions where PP can be spent.

You are correct, it's per power rather than per round. ...Although that may be a good way to balance it.
"...you can spend only a total number of points on a power equal to your manifester level."

 

[NilesB]

Yes.

For a value of overpowered that is significantly weaker than core spellcasters overall, sure.

Psions and Wilders can often sometimes outperform core spellcasters in blasting, however given that they are weaker than core spellcasters at everything else (it's easier to build an arcane spellcaster who can telepathicly communicate with the rest of the party all day than a telepath, how fair is that?) this is necessary to keep them from being underpowered.