Tougher Monsters ~ overcoming SR & Good Saves

[tricky_bob]

I'm participating in the Age of Worms campaign and now that the PC's have reached level 10/11, the monsters are obviously getting harder.

Firstly by having SR ~ with forethought and planning you can prepare for this with Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and even Third Eye Penetrate (mic) all of which grant +2 bonuses to overcoming spell resistance.

Secondly by having higher Save bonuses ~ this is where I'm a little stumped. Other than Spell Focus type Feats that only add 1 to your DC's, for only one school, and spending a ton of cash pumping your save DC stat mod, there seems little can be done about Monsters with high save bonuses negating your spells regardless of how well you can overcome their SR. Am I missing something?

For example,
We were attacked by some Bone Devils and Barbed Devils, their saves were f12 r12 w11 and f14 r14 w12 respectively. A Wizard with say, 20 INT has a DC of 20 for a 5th level spell (again assuming you overcome their SR) that gives the monster between 55% to 70% chance of success.
And if you look at the SR situation, if you have no bonuses on your Spell Penetration check, at level 11 you only have a 55% (bone) and 45 % (barbed) chance to cast in the first place.

Now, I'm not complaining here. If this sort of thing is "normal" then this goes a long way towards balancing full casters compared to melee types. But everyone seems to think that full casters get an easy ride but is that really the case?

 

[Caliban]

The "secret" is to use spells from the school of Conjuration - No SR and several spells either have no save or a worthwhile effect even if they do save. Especially if you have access to spells from the Spell Compendium

Grease
Lesser "Orb" spells
Web
Glitterdust
Orb Spells (especially Orb of Force)
Evard's Tentacles
Arc of Lightning

And of course, the various "Summon Monster" spells.

 

[frankthedm]

Now, I'm not complaining here. If this sort of thing is "normal" then this goes a long way towards balancing full casters compared to melee types. But everyone seems to think that full casters get an easy ride but is that really the case?

When the saves get to high, focus on summons and buffing the party. Walls of force, iron and stone don't get walked trough.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

We were attacked by some Bone Devils and Barbed Devils, their saves were f12 r12 w11 and f14 r14 w12 respectively. A Wizard with say, 20 INT has a DC of 20 for a 5th level spell (again assuming you overcome their SR) that gives the monster between 55% to 70% chance of success.
And if you look at the SR situation, if you have no bonuses on your Spell Penetration check, at level 11 you only have a 55% (bone) and 45 % (barbed) chance to cast in the first place.

I know exactly what encounter you are talking about, here was what happened to me. I play a Warmage.

1. Cast Wall of Fire (ring) as a defense for the party (useless)
2. Prepared to cast an orb of acid at anything coming in the wall (never saw anything)
3. Cast Fire Shield (useless)
4. Was grappled by a barbed devil as it charged through the wall of flames
5. Escaped the gapple long enough to try a Prismatic Ray on the barbed devil which failed to work
6. Died

DS

 

[Seeten]

Just use orbs. Easy touch attack to hit, no save, no sr

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I think the orb spells are horribly overpowered and add a capability to the conjuration school that it didn't need; it was already quite powerful.

At the levels you're talking about, save-or-die spells are fairly common. These are your high-risk gambles, whereas summons tend to be more reliable for less effect (they almost always do SOMETHING, even if just forcing the enemy to waste actions). Save-or die spells might end the fight quickly, or they might do nothing. Against a bone devil, a Dismissal spell from your 20-Int 10th-level caster with Spell Penetration has a 60% chance to beat the SR, and a 45% chance to beat the saving throw. So better than a 1-in-4 chance of putting the creature away with a single spell. If I were playing a caster, I'd consider those good odds and take the shot. If you don't like this gamble, then as others have said you can use battlefield control, buffing, or summoning.

Feeblemind, Baleful Polymorph, and Confusion are also excellent spells where if a target fails its save it is severely incapacitated. No-save spells should NOT have comparable power; it occurs to me that Enervation is a bit too strong compared to Bestow Curse, so perhaps the latter should be 3rd-level.

 

[FireLance]

As others have mentioned, the orb spells from Complete Arcane and the Spell Compendium are very good against high-SR monsters with good saves.

If you feel that they are too good, you could reduce the damage, say to 1d4/level or whatever you feel comfortable with. This alllows them to retain their flavor and niche usefulness without unbalancing your game.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I know exactly what encounter you are talking about, here was what happened to me. I play a Warmage.

1. Cast Wall of Fire (ring) as a defense for the party (useless)
2. Prepared to cast an orb of acid at anything coming in the wall (never saw anything)
3. Cast Fire Shield (useless)
4. Was grappled by a barbed devil as it charged through the wall of flames
5. Escaped the gapple long enough to try a Prismatic Ray on the barbed devil which failed to work
6. Died

DS

Yeah... I can see where a warmage would get hosed in a case where direct damage spells were not effective. Of course, as has been mentioned, the Orb spells would have worked just dandy on those pesky fiends, but may not have saved you from a butt-whupping in the end, and are often considered to be overpowered or cheesy (though I find that they are perfect for the warmage in these types of situations, since the warmage has such a strict focus on direct damage).

Later
silver

 

[tricky_bob]

Thanks guys. The Wizard is being played by someone else and he has no bonuses to help Penetrae spells.
I'm playing an Archivivst with SP GSP AND 3rd Eye Penetrate. Unfortunatly I can't use Orbs, but I can Summon Nature's Allies.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Assay Resistance, also from Complete Arcane, is good too. It's a 4th level spell, swift action to cast, improves your spell penetration check by +10 against a single foe.