D&D (2024) Toward a Theory of 6th Edition

[Oofta]

I assume this was meant a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but I do appreciate a little bit of "fairy tale" in my RPGs. (One reason I am full of anticipatory hope about the prediction that Feywild will be the next focus.)

I do value mechanics that, as I said, I like interesting trade-offs, so on the armor issue specifically I wish there were more factors at play. Not because I care about realism. Realism is mostly just the enemy of fun.

In the LOTR movies did you ever see Gimli without heavy armor on? Most images of fantasy warriors have people running around in heavy armor all the time.

I guess I just don't understand why it bothers people. Personally, it bothers me that barbarians can have just as high an AC while running around in a loincloth. I know it's supernatural, but still. Layers of metal and padding should protect you better than a loincloth. Or a single layer of leather because you can dodge out of the way of 5 arrows coming at you from different directions at the same time.

I guess I'm just saying that we all accept a bunch of tropes that may or may not be realistic.

In my version of more realistic, there should be more granularity to types of armor but dexterity based characters could never match the AC of people wearing even moderately heavy armor unless there is a supernatural explanation (e.g. monks ki adding to their AC).

 

[Satyrn]

In my version of more realistic, there should be more granularity to types of armor but dexterity based characters could never match the AC of people wearing even moderately heavy armor unless there is a supernatural explanation (e.g. monks ki adding to their AC).

After playing my moderately dextrous gnome battlemaster, I find I like the way 5e does armor. It goes a long way toward what your after, because breastplate was still gave a better AC than studded leather. And would remain until (if) I upped my Dex to 18 - and it was only if I took my DEX to 20 that it would be a worse choice - and at that time I really wouldn't mind that with a superdex character.

And plate is still higher than that. (And if you're playing a dwarf cleric, you could put a 10 in both Str and Dex and still be rocking that plate AC without fuss)

 

[Guest 6801328]

In the LOTR movies did you ever see Gimli without heavy armor on? Most images of fantasy warriors have people running around in heavy armor all the time.

I try to block out my memories of the LOTR movies.

I guess I just don't understand why it bothers people. Personally, it bothers me that barbarians can have just as high an AC while running around in a loincloth. I know it's supernatural, but still. Layers of metal and padding should protect you better than a loincloth. Or a single layer of leather because you can dodge out of the way of 5 arrows coming at you from different directions at the same time.

I guess I'm just saying that we all accept a bunch of tropes that may or may not be realistic.

In my version of more realistic, there should be more granularity to types of armor but dexterity based characters could never match the AC of people wearing even moderately heavy armor unless there is a supernatural explanation (e.g. monks ki adding to their AC).

Oh, as I've said many times it doesn't bother me from a realism perspective at all. I just think it's boring if, once you save up enough gold, there's no decision to be made about armor. I don't like it when there's a "best" armor or a "best" weapon. "Encumbrance" is just a handy concept to balance against protection in order to make the decision non-obvious.

 

[Tony Vargas]

In the LOTR movies did you ever see Gimli without heavy armor on? Most images of fantasy warriors have people running around in heavy armor all the time.

I guess I just don't understand why it bothers people.

Expectations get shaped by a lot of things. Hollywood actors have never liked having their faces covered on screen (and the audience needs to know who's who), so a lot of movies get made with heroes wearing no armor, or running around with their visors up or helmets off constantly.

The very heavy armor used in jousting was preserved in museums, and people wearing armor modeled on it as costumes (without training to accustom themselves to it, of course) got the impression it was incredibly cumbersome - something re-enactors later debunked.

Early D&D made being 'able' (allowed) to wear armor a major advantage of the fighter and cleric, and made it a very large advantage, so DMs were often tempted to push back against it by layering restrictions, many of them counter-genre or based on modern misconceptions on armor to 'balance' it. Even though unarmored characters are barely at a disadvantage relative to their heavy-armored comrades, now, that habit remains.

Personally, it bothers me that barbarians can have just as high an AC while running around in a loincloth. I know it's supernatural, but still. Layers of metal and padding should protect you better than a loincloth. Or a single layer of leather because you can dodge out of the way of 5 arrows coming at you from different directions at the same time.

I guess I'm just saying that we all accept a bunch of tropes that may or may not be realistic.

Calls for realism always seem to be selective, and are usually about something else. Armor is too effective, so make it unrealistically cumbersome (and throw rust monsters at the party).

I just think it's boring if, once you save up enough gold, there's no decision to be made about armor. I don't like it when there's a "best" armor or a "best" weapon. "Encumbrance" is just a handy concept to balance against protection in order to make the decision non-obvious.

It's never seemed to have worked before. Rather, for instance, in 3e, it became all about DEX. If your DEX bonus was +1 your optimal armor was full plate, +3, it was breastplate (or Mithral Full Plate, FTW), if your DEX bonus was +8 (yeah, it could happen), magical 'Celestial Mail' was the ticket...

Stealth has sometimes worked better, 5e's disadvantage on stealth, 3e & 4e armor check penalties affecting stealth and other skills, would make it reasonable to generally (or occasionally, depending on the build) choose mobility over protection, and not because your class 'forced' you.

 

[Guest 6801328]

It's never seemed to have worked before. Rather, for instance, in 3e, it became all about DEX. If your DEX bonus was +1 your optimal armor was full plate, +3, it was breastplate (or Mithral Full Plate, FTW), if your DEX bonus was +8 (yeah, it could happen), magical 'Celestial Mail' was the ticket...

Stealth has sometimes worked better, 5e's disadvantage on stealth, 3e & 4e armor check penalties affecting stealth and other skills, would make it reasonable to generally (or occasionally, depending on the build) choose mobility over protection, and not because your class 'forced' you.

Perhaps not in D&D. Not yet. (Growth mindset!) The stealth thing is a step in the right direction. I don't know the answer but I know it's possible to balance the incentives. I'm curious to see what the "Sleeping in Armor" section in XGtE will say.

 

[Stalker0]

Perhaps not in D&D. Not yet. (Growth mindset!) The stealth thing is a step in the right direction. I don't know the answer but I know it's possible to balance the incentives. I'm curious to see what the "Sleeping in Armor" section in XGtE will say.

In real life there are armors that simply superior to others. The balancing factor is cost....the best armor in the world is ridiculously expensive, that only the crazy rich could afford.

The thing is...most PCs are the crazy rich. Adventurers make money regular people can only dream of....which is why they are willing to get chewed on by dragons and stunned by mind flayers. So Pcs quickly get to the levels of wealth needed to buy the best armor....and then stop.

 

[SmokeyCriminal]

What hasn't been mentioned at all yet is Twitch and Streaming and how it may impact 6E.

3 years ago you were lucky if there was 2 games on the D&D page and only Rollplay had more then 5 viewers, but today there is consistently a dozen games in the page, and even that is really impressive because of its consistency. Aside from the, about a dozen, staple games on Twitch (Hearthstone, Overwatch, League of Legend, ect.) literally every other multi-million dollar triple A game dies off after a few months. The new Legend of Zelda game, which is the highest rated game of all time, first contender of game of the year, and came out about 5 months ago, it has the same amount of channels playing it as the D&D page, and less viewers.

3 years ago there was really only one channel playing TTRPGs on Twitch with any degree of success and that was Rollplay, now I can easily name half a dozen. Plus Companies are allowing some of these channels to use their IP, and I'm talking about Geek & Sundry having permission by the owners of Star Trek, to play a Star Trek RPG game on their channel, and HyperRPG got the rights to play a Power Rangers RPG by Saban. And of course D&D has started their own channel, which is growing. Plus all the cross pollination between all of these channels is insane, they are not competing at all, they are all interested in one thing only, growth. And they are receiving it. It's only getting bigger, more channels are popping up and being supported by the streaming community, more companies are showing an interest, more celebrities are participating. D&D is entertainment, it is a spectator sport.

Its not going to be too long untill a TTRPG is made specifically for streaming.

And with D&D proper in the business of streaming, I'm sure they are learning how the medium works and gathering information and data, and learning from successful channels and from their own failures. They're only going to get better at it.

So then I wonder how much of all this will be reflected on 6E. the DMG is a book made specifically for a DM to run a game, and the medium used to be exclusively the tabletop, but more and more its also streaming.

Do you think it will have tips on how to run a stream of D&D? Maybe talk about cross chatter, when to have breaks and how long they should be, ect...

Some channels like HyperRPG are very viewer interactive. Maybe the 6E will have a guide on how much the viewers need to donate to give a player or the DM advantage on a roll, maybe talk about what parts of the system are okay to let viewers fiddle with and which not to. The same way it gives advice to DMs on tweaking their game

What about rules and options specifically for streaming? Like a rest mechanic that is optimal for streaming. because they found out that the audience likes it when there is a "breather" or inter-party interaction every 45min, so they tweak the resting mechanism to need to happen about every 45min.

Or maybe borrow small mechanics from a different RPG that was made specifically for streaming?

Oh, what about deliberately excluding certain things that previous editions had specifically because they assume that 6E will be watched by a broader audience? Like maybe they get data that says the audience doesn't like Advantage/Disadvantage, so they get rid of it for 6E.

I don't know what, if any, impact streaming will have on 6E, or even what that would look like. But I've read on these boards about how 4E was affected by videogames and MMOs. And D&D isn't afraid of being influenced by culture trends. But at the same time, still no PDFs, so its hard to say for sure what sticks and what doesn't.

 

[Guest 6801328]

In real life there are armors that simply superior to others. The balancing factor is cost....the best armor in the world is ridiculously expensive, that only the crazy rich could afford.

The thing is...most PCs are the crazy rich. Adventurers make money regular people can only dream of....which is why they are willing to get chewed on by dragons and stunned by mind flayers. So Pcs quickly get to the levels of wealth needed to buy the best armor....and then stop.

I'll bookmark this post and if I ever need armor in real life I'll come back and read the rest of what you wrote...

 

[Guest 6801328]

What hasn't been mentioned at all yet is Twitch and Streaming and how it may impact 6E.

3 years ago you were lucky if there was 2 games on the D&D page and only Rollplay had more then 5 viewers, but today there is consistently a dozen games in the page, and even that is really impressive because of its consistency. Aside from the, about a dozen, staple games on Twitch (Hearthstone, Overwatch, League of Legend, ect.) literally every other multi-million dollar triple A game dies off after a few months. The new Legend of Zelda game, which is the highest rated game of all time, first contender of game of the year, and came out about 5 months ago, it has the same amount of channels playing it as the D&D page, and less viewers.

3 years ago there was really only one channel playing TTRPGs on Twitch with any degree of success and that was Rollplay, now I can easily name half a dozen. Plus Companies are allowing some of these channels to use their IP, and I'm talking about Geek & Sundry having permission by the owners of Star Trek, to play a Star Trek RPG game on their channel, and HyperRPG got the rights to play a Power Rangers RPG by Saban. And of course D&D has started their own channel, which is growing. Plus all the cross pollination between all of these channels is insane, they are not competing at all, they are all interested in one thing only, growth. And they are receiving it. It's only getting bigger, more channels are popping up and being supported by the streaming community, more companies are showing an interest, more celebrities are participating. D&D is entertainment, it is a spectator sport.

Its not going to be too long untill a TTRPG is made specifically for streaming.

And with D&D proper in the business of streaming, I'm sure they are learning how the medium works and gathering information and data, and learning from successful channels and from their own failures. They're only going to get better at it.

So then I wonder how much of all this will be reflected on 6E. the DMG is a book made specifically for a DM to run a game, and the medium used to be exclusively the tabletop, but more and more its also streaming.

Do you think it will have tips on how to run a stream of D&D? Maybe talk about cross chatter, when to have breaks and how long they should be, ect...

Some channels like HyperRPG are very viewer interactive. Maybe the 6E will have a guide on how much the viewers need to donate to give a player or the DM advantage on a roll, maybe talk about what parts of the system are okay to let viewers fiddle with and which not to. The same way it gives advice to DMs on tweaking their game

What about rules and options specifically for streaming? Like a rest mechanic that is optimal for streaming. because they found out that the audience likes it when there is a "breather" or inter-party interaction every 45min, so they tweak the resting mechanism to need to happen about every 45min.

Or maybe borrow small mechanics from a different RPG that was made specifically for streaming?

Oh, what about deliberately excluding certain things that previous editions had specifically because they assume that 6E will be watched by a broader audience? Like maybe they get data that says the audience doesn't like Advantage/Disadvantage, so they get rid of it for 6E.

I don't know what, if any, impact streaming will have on 6E, or even what that would look like. But I've read on these boards about how 4E was affected by videogames and MMOs. And D&D isn't afraid of being influenced by culture trends. But at the same time, still no PDFs, so its hard to say for sure what sticks and what doesn't.

Interesting. I hope you are wrong, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[TwoSix]

I don't know what, if any, impact streaming will have on 6E, or even what that would look like. But I've read on these boards about how 4E was affected by videogames and MMOs. And D&D isn't afraid of being influenced by culture trends. But at the same time, still no PDFs, so its hard to say for sure what sticks and what doesn't.

Excellent post. I'm not involved with the streaming community, but it's getting hard to ignore its presence.