D&D 5E Toxicity in the Fandom

[Raunalyn]

I agree. Of course when the behaviour is repeated multiple times and when calling it out immediately results in being dehumanized, called the standard epithets like keyboard warrior and the like, sometimes one really must call a shovel a pointy digging instrument.

Except that there's quite a bit missing from this particular recollection...enough that screenshots of the conversation show that the glaring omission could be construed as being untruthful. An argument was made that wasn't taken at face value and the individual in question ascribed all sorts of motives and assumptions to what was being said (those words were said by someone, I forget who...interesting that this particular person is guilty of the very same thing they accuse others of). The individual in question then made a pretty libelous accusation, and it escalated from there. What's so funny about all of this is that the individual in question made these accusations, and when asked to provide proof, they blocked the person they accused instead of calmly discussing it and coming to an understanding. Then again, calling someone any of the 'ist terms because you don't agree with their argument is also dehumanizing as well. It is also toxic as all hell to think oneself as morally superior to another person because of a personal stance, and yet partake in the same (if not worse) activities that they condemn.

The screenshots are pretty telling, to be honest. It's quite humorous that this particular person gets all bent out of shape when it's pointed out that they are just as guilty as those they accuse. Which, interestingly, falls under the toxicity umbrella.

What's sad about all of this is that these two individuals considered each other friends at one point. Too bad that the accuser blocked the other person instead of discussing the situation to come to an understanding. Which is also toxic.

A simple apology would do so much...

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think understanding skill challenges requires a grounding in narrative convention and flow, and WotC has never been good at describing these things in their rulebooks, probably due to the oft-mentioned "marketing to 12-year-olds" issue.

I will also add that I don't believe narrative convention should in any way be codified in the rules of D&D, which I'm sure informs my feelings about skill challenges.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think understanding skill challenges requires a grounding in narrative convention and flow, and WotC has never been good at describing these things in their rulebooks, probably due to the oft-mentioned "marketing to 12-year-olds" issue.

And, of course, it doesn't come natural to some GMs so even ones who were trying to engage with it in an appropriate fashion might have some frequent failures.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Some words very offensive in USA aren't a big deal in Australia and NZ.

Some have positive connotations depending on how they're used.

Australians also swear a bit so do we relative to USA. Every swear word here is about as offensive as the word damn in USA with the exception of an F bomb which still counts as swearing but isn't that offensive any more.

C words still bad but Australia and NZ have a few sayings using it that has positive connotations.

Australians can also turn the word mate into an insult and a punch out.

Aussie here. I try not to use the C word. I consider it sexist. I try to use a word for male genitalia instead. But I admit there are times the C bomb comes out. Sometimes reflexively, but sometimes I just need the cultural weight that comes with the C bomb. I mean, I wish it were not the case that it's considered worse than the male equivalent, but it is.

My wife, on the other hand, is happy to drop the C bomb. Or the occasional C cluster bomb. Or C nuke. But, as she points out, she has every right to do so.

As for "mate," it is indeed a versatile word with many shades of meaning based on context and tone. If dealing with Australians use it carefully.

I mean there could be, nothing stops someone from running a Pathfinder game with D&D lore. I know that's what my group often did, because we weren't really into Golarion.

Absolutely. I have a long running PE1 game that is set in Greyhawk. It has mind flayers too.

 

[billd91]

Aussie here. I try not to use the C word. I consider it sexist. I try to use a word for male genitalia instead. But I admit there are times the C bomb comes out. Sometimes reflexively, but sometimes I just need the cultural weight that comes with the C bomb. I mean, I wish it were not the case that it's considered worse than the male equivalent, but it is.

My wife, on the other hand, is happy to drop the C bomb. Or the occasional C cluster bomb. Or C nuke. But, as she points out, she has every right to do so.

My wife was partly raised in the UK, where the c word is also liberally sprinkled about, but she pretty much detests any use of slang words for female genitals in a derogatory context. She is, however, OK with literally any other form of profanity as long as its used in the right context. It's interesting how different perspectives develop.

 

[payn]

Aussie here. I try not to use the C word. I consider it sexist. I try to use a word for male genitalia instead. But I admit there are times the C bomb comes out. Sometimes reflexively, but sometimes I just need the cultural weight that comes with the C bomb. I mean, I wish it were not the case that it's considered worse than the male equivalent, but it is.

My wife, on the other hand, is happy to drop the C bomb. Or the occasional C cluster bomb. Or C nuke. But, as she points out, she has every right to do so.

As for "mate," it is indeed a versatile word with many shades of meaning based on context and tone. If dealing with Australians use it carefully.



Absolutely. I have a long running PE1 game that is set in Greyhawk. It has mind flayers too.

Can't go wrong with taint.

 

[Zardnaar]

Aussie here. I try not to use the C word. I consider it sexist. I try to use a word for male genitalia instead. But I admit there are times the C bomb comes out. Sometimes reflexively, but sometimes I just need the cultural weight that comes with the C bomb. I mean, I wish it were not the case that it's considered worse than the male equivalent, but it is.

My wife, on the other hand, is happy to drop the C bomb. Or the occasional C cluster bomb. Or C nuke. But, as she points out, she has every right to do so.

As for "mate," it is indeed a versatile word with many shades of meaning based on context and tone. If dealing with Australians use it carefully.



Absolutely. I have a long running PE1 game that is set in Greyhawk. It has mind flayers too.

Wife uses it way more than I do. She gets it from truck drivers. I remember eating a cake of soap age 4 give or take for using it.

 

[Stormonu]

Heh, it's funny. I've been watching a live play from Viva La Dirt League (NPC D&D - it's a guilty pleasure, sue me). These are four players that know virtually nothing about D&D. Total newbies. As in, need to be repeatedly told which die is the d8 and which is the d4 - that level of newbie.

Yet, when the DM runs a 5e adapted version of a skill challenge, there's zero confusion and lots of immersion. He's done it more than once in the series, and every time it comes up, the players get right on board with it and have no real issues.

So, I'm finding that this idea that skill challenges are this bizarre thing that no one could ever understand to be rather overblown. DM says something along the lines of "Here's the situation, what are you going to do to help resolve that problem?" Players make their cases, and roll their dice, and the situation is resolved. No gaming the system to any large extent, very engaged players, and a ton of fun around the table.

But, because it has 4e cooties on it, we cannot talk about skill challenges seriously without all and sundry coming out of the woodwork to question every single statement and bog the conversation down under a mountain of whatabout's and theorycrafting.

For those who might be interested, check out episodes 99-100 of Viva La Dirt League's NPC D&D series for a fantastic example of how skill challenges (or group skill checks in 5e parlance) work.

I'll sometimes slide a psuedo-skill challenge into my games (5E and even other systems). The ones I set up are more open that the rigid structure of 4E (that structure is what I dislike about that version's handling), and I don't require round-robin participation, though I do try to make it so that the same person/skill can't be used over and over again.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

I can't warm to skill challenges. They just feel slightly off to me. But my experience with them is limited to what I've seen on critical role, so maybe they can work?

 

[James Gasik]

I can't warm to skill challenges. They just feel slightly off to me. But my experience with them is limited to what I've seen on critical role, so maybe they can work?

They have potential, but as we discussed earlier, you need to really use them correctly. Like, say you want the PC's to sail a ship to a destination. Having one guy be a lookout with perception checks each day, another person navigate, another keep the rigging ship shape...that sort of thing.

Then you have some consequences for success (or even degrees of success) and failure. Honestly, most games do this sort of thing all the time without even realizing it. A lot of Pathfinder Adventure Paths do this sort of thing, like Skulls and Shackles, they just don't call it out.

It's a way to handle non-combat "exploration actions", I guess. But not the only way.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

When

 

[James Gasik]

When

Soon!

 

[Hussar]

They have potential, but as we discussed earlier, you need to really use them correctly. Like, say you want the PC's to sail a ship to a destination. Having one guy be a lookout with perception checks each day, another person navigate, another keep the rigging ship shape...that sort of thing.

Then you have some consequences for success (or even degrees of success) and failure. Honestly, most games do this sort of thing all the time without even realizing it. A lot of Pathfinder Adventure Paths do this sort of thing, like Skulls and Shackles, they just don't call it out.

It's a way to handle non-combat "exploration actions", I guess. But not the only way.

See, there's the trick isn't it?

Pathfinder does this kind of thing now. It took 4e adding it into the D&D sort of zeitgeist to sort of add it into the lexicon of D&D gaming. I have seen sort of proto-skill challenges in earlier modules, but, generally speaking, the notion of a skill challenge as a thing for DM's to use during the game wasn't really part of D&D until 4e came along. Now? Now, it's pretty common if like a lot of 4e mechanics ported over into 5e, done in a much more loosey goosey way.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

False start, soz.

They have potential, but as we discussed earlier, you need to really use them correctly. Like, say you want the PC's to sail a ship to a destination. Having one guy be a lookout with perception checks each day, another person navigate, another keep the rigging ship shape...that sort of thing.

Then you have some consequences for success (or even degrees of success) and failure. Honestly, most games do this sort of thing all the time without even realizing it. A lot of Pathfinder Adventure Paths do this sort of thing, like Skulls and Shackles, they just don't call it out.

It's a way to handle non-combat "exploration actions", I guess. But not the only way.

When this sort of thing comes organically out of the narrative, like in your example, I'm all for it. But the way I've seen it happen it feels like the GM is just says "skill challenge" and then the players just come up with stupid ways to use their highest skill.

 

[James Gasik]

False start, soz.


When this sort of thing comes organically out of the narrative, like in your example, I'm all for it. But the way I've seen it happen it feels like the GM is just says "skill challenge" and then the players just come up with stupid ways to use their highest skill.

Yes and that's certainly a reaction you can have. The GM needs to really take the abilities of their group into account when deciding to use a skill challenge. Most of the problems (but not all) I've had with skill challenges came from published adventures where the designer forgot that maybe the Fighter has nothing to offer but Athletics or Intimidation.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Yeah. Poor bloody fighters. Always overlooked.

 

[Smackpixi]

What do you do when you realize you’re part of the problem? I get that stop being terrible is the easy answer, but after that?

 

[Hussar]

What do you do when you realize you’re part of the problem? I get that stop being terrible is the easy answer, but after that?

My advice? Disengage. Just stop. Don't engage with that person anymore. It will simply not be productive and will not resolve anything. They will have the last word, and that's perfectly fine. And then do better next time. Recognize where you need to be better. And, I think this one is key, recognize the situations where you are going to (and I mean you as in everyone including me, not you specifically) become part of the problem and learn to disengage before then.

I think that's all we can do going forward. Accept that whatever happened, happened, but, resolve to do better next time. There really is no going backwards usually.

 

[James Gasik]

What do you do when you realize you’re part of the problem? I get that stop being terrible is the easy answer, but after that?

Introspection, soul searching, brooding, a Fast and the Furious Marathon...sufficient self-castigation and you will rise from the ashes like a phoenix!

Seriously though, you need to figure out where the vitriol is coming from. Why does it bother you so much that things aren't the way they are? Is there anything constructive you can do about it?

It's a crazy world, and it often feels like we have no control over anything. Beloved movie franchises are strangled of any ounce of creativity, to the point you dread the mention of the word "reboot". Games you love are destroyed and replaced by things that have the same name, but are completely different.

Our safe spaces and escapes from the chaos sometimes feel like they are under attack, and for a lot of people, that's the final straw.

The good news is, you're not alone. There are people who feel the same way, and some bitching about it is therapeutic. But for true catharsis, you need to find a better outlet than trying to bring other people down.

Because when everyone is trying to drag each other down, nobody wins.

 

[Eubani]

I think the most toxic part of the fandom is the way some seek the worse interpretation possible (and in some cases beyond possible) of things which leads to unfair labeling of people and their works. This is compounded by any defense to the person or work being painted as a wrong.