D&D 5E (2014) Toxicity in the Fandom

[Mallus]

For what it's worth, I found most people using it derogatorily have postmodernism and/or CRT beliefs in mind.

I find most people like that who have postmodernism in mind have no idea what postmodernism is.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

I know quite a few that do it because they were taught it was a bad thing by miserable scumbags and actually have no context for what it is other than 'woke bad'. Like they have all the talking points, but none of the actual scumbag caloric content and they will NOT give their beloved buzzwords up because they get rewarded for it on the internet. It is super weird and concerning.

I've actually walked them through the entire actual definition of woke, asked them a serious of question that proved they themselves were, indeed, woke... and then they immediately started parroting talking points again in chat.

That's depressing.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That's depressing.

I wish I could say it was surprising.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

I wish I could say it was surprising.

I wish that too.

 

[Hussar]

It’s stunning that en world has a blanket ban on certain phrases. Well stunning that it’s needed. Once you strip away people’s ability to dehumanize and demonize the opposition, it becomes really clear that many of the arguments are just so much hot air without any substance.

Biggest red flag for me is when people start tossing around things like social justice warrior and whatnot. If you actually had a leg to stand on you wouldn’t need to bring in all that crap.

Have a problem with censorship? Ok. Let’s talk about that. Have a problem with the “woke mob”? I’m out. It’s just not worth the headache of trying to engage. I just don’t have the willpower for it anymore.

 

[Ancalagon]

I know quite a few that do it because they were taught it was a bad thing by miserable scumbags and actually have no context for what it is other than 'woke bad'. Like they have all the talking points, but none of the actual scumbag caloric content and they will NOT give their beloved buzzwords up because they get rewarded for it on the internet. It is super weird and concerning.

I've actually walked them through the entire actual definition of woke, asked them a serious of question that proved they themselves were, indeed, woke... and then they immediately started parroting talking points again in chat.

when people build their social identities around causes...

 

[Raunalyn]

Personally, I don't have a problem with people who proclaim themselves as woke. I do have a problem with those who hide behind that label because they think it provides them a sense of moral superiority to those whom they disagree with; a pedestal so they can condescend to the unenlightened masses. They use it as a bludgeon to hide their own self-righteous hypocrisy. Maybe this is where the pejorative form of the term comes from? I don't know...just speculating.

If you disagree with someone, that's fine. But don't label them with a dehumanitizing or demonizing term like "racist" when it's completely untrue and then block them so they can't defend themselves...that's the very definition of toxic. You cannot have a reasonable or intelligent conversation about anything if one person is acting holier-than-thou and hiding behind a false sense of moral superiority.

There's a fantastic interview with John McWhorter that describes this. It's a good watch, and his book is a good read.

 

[mythago]

More importantly, I think it's important to bring this back into the context of the OP. The great thing about TTRPGs when I was growing up is that it was inclusive for many people that were considered outcasts at the time. Sure, "geek culture" is the new hotness now, but it wasn't that way when D&D started. TTRPGs were a welcoming place for people that didn't fit in elsewhere. That it wasn't always welcoming to some (women, POC, LGBTQA+, etc.) doesn't mean that when we think fondly back on the good aspects of older games, we carry with it the baggage of that exclusion.

Well, wait, you just contradicted yourself. If the hobby was not always welcoming to "some" - and "women, POC, LGBTQA+, etc." is a pretty big group of '"some" - then it really wasn't welcoming to "people that were considered outcasts at the time". It was welcoming to a subset of those people. Which, less euphemistically, means a bunch of straight white dudes decided that the TTRPG community was not so much a place to pretend to be wizards, as a community where the same bullying and gatekeeping would exist except that they'd be the ones on top.

I don't think this is entirely accurate - in that, as you say, "geek culture" was weird and niche back in the day, and so a lot of that exclusion and outsider-status came from being into TTRPGs.

But that aside, yes, it absolutely does mean that we carry that baggage in the hobby today. Especially because a lot of people in TTRPGs today were around back then. We're not talking about the ancient and long-forgotten practices of our ancestors.

 

[mythago]

I know quite a few that do it because they were taught it was a bad thing by miserable scumbags and actually have no context for what it is other than 'woke bad'. Like they have all the talking points, but none of the actual scumbag caloric content and they will NOT give their beloved buzzwords up because they get rewarded for it on the internet. It is super weird and concerning.

I've actually walked them through the entire actual definition of woke, asked them a serious of question that proved they themselves were, indeed, woke... and then they immediately started parroting talking points again in chat.

As the saying goes, you can't reason people out of opinions they didn't reason themselves into.

"Woke" always strikes me as something like "I"m a good person" - it's not a label you have to apply to yourself, and if you do, it raises the question of why you have to tell everyone instead of it being self-evident.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I do have a problem with those who hide behind that label because they think it provides them a sense of moral superiority to those whom they disagree with

This is an unfortunate fallacy.

Nobody describes themselves as woke and "uses it as a bludgeon". Virtually nobody describes themselves as woke at all except to point out they've been accused of it. It's a pejorative attack-term used to dismiss people and characterise them the way you're describe, completely regardless of their actual behaviour or views. I've seen far-right politicians labelled "woke" routinely (you can't argue with this, unless you want me to link tons of British newspapers, because it happens constantly). Woke is to right in the 2020s what "fascist" was to left in the 1980s and 1990s. It's just a word they slap on people - even their own - if they think they are insufficiently far right.

Kind of ruined your argument immediately there, by buying into pure fantasy.

If you disagree with someone, that's fine. But don't label them with a dehumanitizing or demonizing term like "racist" when it's completely untrue

Except the problem is those last four weasel words.

Because in the vast majority of cases with people getting blocked they are, in fact, saying racist stuff (which doesn't necessarily mean they are a racist, note, though it often correlates with that). They're just unhappy that it's characterised that way. We see this all the time - people come out with some lazy racist canard, often about Black-on-Black violence or the like, then they're shocked, absolutely astounded when people point out that what they're saying is racist.

And that last part is particularly sad, because watching these discussions, most of the time, what happens is this:

Person A - But [Racist canard]!
Person B - That's a racist canard.
Person A - OMGGGG HOW DARE U CALL ME A RACIST?!??!?!
Person B - I didn't, I said you were repeating a racist canard..
Person A - AAARRHHRHRHFHGHGHHGHGH YOUR STILL CALLING ME RACIST!!!! WHY ARE YOU WOKE LIBERALS SO AWFUL TO US HONEST FOLK!!?!?
Person B - Okay you're having a meltdown, and cannot be reasoned with, so I'm blocking you.
Person A - SEE SEE SEE THEY REFUSE TO BE REASONED WITH!!!!

It's pretty funny and pretty sad frankly.