Trip? Disarm? Sunder? Gone forever?

[Aaron]

What are you going to answer to your players if they want to trip, disarm their opponents?

What if they try to sunder an opponent's weapon?

"The rules don't allow this": period?

 

[hong]

I would rule an ad-hoc stunt: Melee atk vs Ref defense; success gives -5 to AC/attacks as appropriate.

(You don't fully trip/disarm/sunder, but you force your opponent on to the defensive or off balance, thus hindering their ability to fight.)

 

[Hussar]

What are you going to answer to your players if they want to trip, disarm their opponents?

What if they try to sunder an opponent's weapon?

"The rules don't allow this": period?

It did work for 20 years.

OTOH, I would point out that 4e combat is abstract and trying such specific actions is probably not in keeping with the abstract nature.

However, since I have not read the books yet, I would first want to read the rules and see what they say.

 

[FourthBear]

I'll probably rule that such maneuvers are very difficult to pull off reliably in combat and declare them something like Str versus Fort or Dex versus Reflex attacks with large penalties (-5 or 10 or something). This should make it possible, but unattractive as a combat tactic against level-appropriate opponents.

I've played with Disarm and Trip focussed PCs and I have to admit I've found them pretty irritating in play. I much prefer it when both sides get to show off their most menacing powers, as opposed to getting tripped and disarmed in the first round and looking like a dope. Tripping and disarming in most fantasy action seems to happen to mooks, surprised characters and worn-down opponents, not to the Dark Lord at the climax of the adventure. It's a bit easier to take when it's a special trick that the PC can only pull off occasionally, rather than every dang round.

 

[WhatGravitas]

I would rule an ad-hoc stunt: Melee atk vs Ref defense; success gives -5 to AC/attacks as appropriate.

(You don't fully trip/disarm/sunder, but you force your opponent on to the defensive or off balance, thus hindering their ability to fight.)

Or grant combat advantage. But I'd also let a full-blown trip attack go with Str vs. AC.

Not sunder, though. Because it's in most cases pretty... erh... how do you actually sunder? I can only see how you can sunder a hafted weapon with something massive, cleaving, like an axe or a greatsword. But sunder metal weapons?

Cheers, LT.

 

[Dunamin]

There are many powers that effectively trip or disarm, but I think sunder is gone for good.

Tripping can be accomplished for a Fighter already at level 1 with Spinning Sweep, disarming I think will have to wait until level 17 with Exorcism of Steel. I've only skimmed Fighter powers, so it may become available through feats or with other powers earlier.

 

[Lord Xtheth]

House rule I guess

Trip
Initiate a grab action as per normal, Then make a strength or dex attack vs. Fort. If successful Push your opponent 1 square, opponent is also prone.

Disarm
Initiate a grab action as per normal, then make a strength or dex attack vs Ref. If successful you chose to take your opponents weapon or push the weapon 1+str mod Squares.

Sunder
This one is a little tough. I would almost say your can't sunder items anymore. I mean in real life it's realy hard to bust someones sword or shield.
I can't realy think of any "on the spot" rules without drawing up an entire "heres everything in the game with HPs and Saves to attack" chart. I'll leave this one to the pros, with either a web enhancement, or the 2nd run of core books. Sorry.

 

[FireLance]

First off, I'll tell the player that it's going to be difficult to pull off trip or disarm attempts without the proper training. If he insists on trying anyway, I'll let him roll melee attack -4 vs AC, and the opponent gets a saving throw to resist (this has the added feature that elite and solo monsters are less likely to be affected).

 

[Bold or Stupid]

Tackle - immediately after Grab use a minor action to attack with str vs fort on hit both you and target are prone, on miss you are prone but still have target grabbed.

Easy and fun to design. I like me this stunt system.

 

[hong]

Not sunder, though. Because it's in most cases pretty... erh... how do you actually sunder? I can only see how you can sunder a hafted weapon with something massive, cleaving, like an axe or a greatsword. But sunder metal weapons?

You, sir, have clearly never seen katanae in action.