Trip is an Encounter Power now

[TwoSix]

Okay, so its really hard to trip someone, so hard it requires an encounter power, but grappling them, that's easy?

Sorry, I'm just not seeing it.

I'm sure any number of stunt-type challenges can knock someone prone. Remember the "kick the table out from under them" thing?

 

[Forgefly]

Curiously, it is also a classic statement of the magic wall of inability problem. Apparently in 4e if you don't have a power, you can't trip anyone at all no matter what risks you're willing to take. So, if players who don't have any special tripping ability don't stop the game to look up the rules for a creative "I trip him" idea they had in 4.0, it's only because the DM gets to say "sorry, you don't have that power so you can't even try to trip him. Do your 1dX+ability bonus damage and like it. That's what you're allowed to do"

Perhaps I'm remembering it incorrectly, but I seem to remember Massawyrm,in his recent review of 4E, referring to a character (the developer if I remember correctly) sliding under a table and kicking it out from under the archers who were on top of it. This had the effect of a trip, in that those on top of the table were now prone, but it wasn't necessary to have it either as a maneuver or a power.

Now like you I know both the grappling and trip rules without looking in the book in spite of the fact that I never used the trip rules as a PC (The wolves used it all the time of course), but I like the idea of it being a swashbuckling element of the game rather than a standard maneuver I can take any time I want. I find a per encounter power perfectly acceptable to perform a trip when there is nothing indicating the trip is warranted or made easier by the situation at hand. (i.e. people standing on a table, people on uneven footing, etc)

I also suspect several monsters with very large tails may have a trip mechanic that they get to use more often, perhaps through a recharge 5 6

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

In a real-world example, yes. As someone with some martial arts and martial weapon training, I have to say that tripping in actual combat (i.e. vs. another aware and trained fighter) is very difficult and requires specialized training. Even "basic" martial arts is specialized training. Grappling on the other hand is very easy. Ever seen or been in a schoolyard fight? After 2-3 "punches" they usually devolve into grapples. Even in the UFC, most bouts turn into grapples. All one has to do is grab your opponent and drag them down. I personally see no issue with grappling being easier than tripping. JMHO.

I don't have an issue with grappling being easier that tripping either. But that's not what happens in 4th edition if the previews we've seen are correct.

From what we were told in the D&D XP threads, there is no "grapple" option in 4th edition. There is only grab. And it doesn't let you wrestle--it just immobilizes the opponent until that opponent succees on an athletics or acrobatics check against some defense or other. We've been told that any way to take the grapple further than that--to twist someone's arm or neck or choke them or pin them would have to be a special power and cannot even be attempted by someone without that power. (Incidentally, makes one or the other of those a skill that everyone should take as "trained" and when combined with the armor check penalty rules we've seen makes it a lot easier to grab a fighter or paladin than an unarmored character--the fighter or paladin is probably wearing heavy armor that will negate all but one point of that +5 bonus for being trained in athletics so unless they spend a feat on skill focus, they're probably looking at much less than a 50/50 chance of escaping the grab--less chance, in fact, than a 10 strength wizard trained in athletics).

What I was told when I trained in kung fu is that something like 90% of real life fights end up grappling on the ground. That's probably not a scientific number, but a lot of them certainly do. But if your schoolyard bullies are using the 4th edition ruleset, they can't either grapple or push each other to the ground unless they select that as their special power.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I read that preview but like others, I read it to be DM improvisation that is only supported by the rules by similarity to other mechanics. If I tried that in a random con game, I would fully expect some DMs to say, "OK, but it will use your per encounter trip power--oh, you don't have that? Then you can't do it", other DMs to say "Hmm well, give me a strength check. If you do well, they'll have to jump off the table into adjoining squares", other DMs to say "OK, you're prone under the table; with them standing on it, it's too heavy for you to lift and too stable to kick over." Likewise, if I said, "I cut off the table leg so that it can't stand up and they can't stand on it" it would trip them sometimes, sometimes it would require the sunder ability and if I don't have it it can't be attempted.

Perhaps I'm remembering it incorrectly, but I seem to remember Massawyrm,in his recent review of 4E, referring to a character (the developer if I remember correctly) sliding under a table and kicking it out from under the archers who were on top of it. This had the effect of a trip, in that those on top of the table were now prone, but it wasn't necessary to have it either as a maneuver or a power.

Now like you I know both the grappling and trip rules without looking in the book in spite of the fact that I never used the trip rules as a PC (The wolves used it all the time of course), but I like the idea of it being a swashbuckling element of the game rather than a standard maneuver I can take any time I want. I find a per encounter power perfectly acceptable to perform a trip when there is nothing indicating the trip is warranted or made easier by the situation at hand. (i.e. people standing on a table, people on uneven footing, etc)

I also suspect several monsters with very large tails may have a trip mechanic that they get to use more often, perhaps through a recharge 5 6

 

[JosephK]

I have a blackbelt in Taekwondo and trained in Kyokushin while I lived in Japan. A couple of my friends train in mixed martial arts and groundfighting.

If you know how to grapple (have specifically trained in grappling and groundfighting), and are currently grappling an opponent who doesn't really know how to grapple or avoid takedowns, you could trip them without too much trouble.

But trying to trip someone in any other circumstance (like in a standup life and death fight where armor and weapons are involved) is an invitation to get your tail kicked if not get yourself outright killed. Trip should be an encounter power and it should not be easily available.

The 3e rules made Trip (and Sunder and Disarm) way TOO easy in proportion to their effectiveness in real life. In this regard, 4e is much MORE realistic than 3e.

As someone who practices martial arts as well (mainly Wing Tsun and Latosa Escrima) I completely agree with this.

Also, (this is stolen from another poster, sorry cant remember who) I really like the idea of thinking about encounter powers (and dailys for that matter) as a way of putting some narrative control in the hands of the player.

If you think of it that way, the encounter powers doesnt mean that the character couldnt preform the specific maneuver/exploit all day long, if he wanted to (such as trip attack or mighty hew or whatever), it's just that the situation where an opportunity to do so presents itself, is fairly rare.. And the player has the narrative control to say when the conditions are just right for him to use this power.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Pft... that reasoning could be applied to ANY combat action.

That's why most "maneuvers" are per encounter now.

Or you can get similar effects only due to special circumstances (stunt rules, like what our bloodsucking rodent used as an example).

It's not, in fact the Fighter can keep TRYING to trip the opponent. He uses up the encounter power only after a success.

Is this confirmed for all fighter powers? I thought there were only some of them that had this ability.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I read that preview but like others, I read it to be DM improvisation that is only supported by the rules by similarity to other mechanics.

As I understood, there were clear guidelines for it. Existing mechanics might serve as the basis, but that doesn't mean it would require you to have access to the power or use it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yeah, this is a problem for me.

As someone who practices martial arts as well (mainly Wing Tsun and Latosa Escrima) I completely agree with this.

Real-world martial arts examples are pretty useless since 4e isn't about simulating real-world martial arts.

It's not a martial arts trip.

It's basically "I knock them over." In 3e, I imagine a trip attempt as basically a strike at the legs, or a push or twist that should knock someone off-balance enough to fall over. It's a low sweep with your sword, it's an off-centered shove that sends you spinning, it's you getting in their face and pushing them over your foot.

And it requires no special training to really grok that combat tactic. Heroes should be able to do it without any artificial metagame limits on how often.

Those with special combat training should absolutely be able to do a better job at it than others: do it more reliably, more efficiently. But even little kids know that if you knock someone over, it's a lot easier to wail on them.

It's redonkulous as a per-encounter power.

It should be a tactic available to everyone.

I've got issues with how they're doing grapple, too. And if disarm and sunder are per-encounter powers or exclusive fighter powers or somesuch, that'll be suck points, too.

Kind of like how it's suck points that weapon finesse is now exclusive to rogues.

Boo and Hiss.

 

[Mirtek]

Thank you Gawds. The Improved Trip rinse-repeat strategy was something I really disliked about 3.x, especially for those with reach weapons.

It really starts gettig fun if you're a thief acrobat or some other class who can get up from prone as a free action

 

[MichaelK]

Eww.

Okay, I'm adding that to the list of things I'm houseruling if I ever run 4e.