Trip is an Encounter Power now

[FourthBear]

Real-world martial arts examples are pretty useless since 4e isn't about simulating real-world martial arts.

OK, then what are they trying to simulate? Because if they're trying to simulate the kind of action found in fantasy fiction, there's not a lot of tripping going on there, as I recall. Most of the time, opponents trade numerous blows and only get to trip upon odd occasions or when the opponents aren't matched in ability. I don't see a lot of evidence that fantasy action characters trip multiple times in the same encounter, so I'm not sure why we need to model that in the combat system.

If we're not going for real world simulation, what's the benchmark we're trying to reach here? One to one match with previous editions? Conan, Elric, LotR? Recent fantasy movie action?

 

[Moochava]

It's not a martial arts trip.

It's basically "I knock them over." In 3e, I imagine a trip attempt as basically a strike at the legs, or a push or twist that should knock someone off-balance enough to fall over. It's a low sweep with your sword, it's an off-centered shove that sends you spinning, it's you getting in their face and pushing them over your foot.

...That's a martial arts trip. What are you expecting, backflips and anima banners?

And it requires no special training to really grok that combat tactic. Heroes should be able to do it without any artificial metagame limits on how often.

They can do it as often as they want. They'll just fail unless they can activate their per-encounter power. In the same way that a hero can try to run his sword through is enemy's heart as often as he wants. He'll just fail unless the target has run out of hit points. Demanding to trip as often as you want is like complaining that you can't one-hit-kill your enemies. That's a valid complaint for plenty of games--but not D&D.

 

[Bishmon]

Real-world martial arts examples are pretty useless since 4e isn't about simulating real-world martial arts.

It's not a martial arts trip.

It's basically "I knock them over." In 3e, I imagine a trip attempt as basically a strike at the legs, or a push or twist that should knock someone off-balance enough to fall over. It's a low sweep with your sword, it's an off-centered shove that sends you spinning, it's you getting in their face and pushing them over your foot.

1) Striking someone's legs doesn't knock someone over. The world's greatest Thai boxers aren't knocking each other over with their powerful leg kicks. And it certainly wouldn't be accomplished by a sword, which is coming in slower and from a higher angle.

2) As for shoves or pushing someone over your foot, multiple people in this thread have reiterated how difficult that is among trained fighters.

 

[JosephK]

Yeah, this is a problem for me.



Real-world martial arts examples are pretty useless since 4e isn't about simulating real-world martial arts.

It's not a martial arts trip.

It's basically "I knock them over." In 3e, I imagine a trip attempt as basically a strike at the legs, or a push or twist that should knock someone off-balance enough to fall over. It's a low sweep with your sword, it's an off-centered shove that sends you spinning, it's you getting in their face and pushing them over your foot.

And it requires no special training to really grok that combat tactic. Heroes should be able to do it without any artificial metagame limits on how often.

Those with special combat training should absolutely be able to do a better job at it than others: do it more reliably, more efficiently. But even little kids know that if you knock someone over, it's a lot easier to wail on them.

It's redonkulous as a per-encounter power.

It should be a tactic available to everyone.

I've got issues with how they're doing grapple, too. And if disarm and sunder are per-encounter powers or exclusive fighter powers or somesuch, that'll be suck points, too.

Kind of like how it's suck points that weapon finesse is now exclusive to rogues.

Boo and Hiss.

The reason we're talking about "real world" martial arts, while talking about 4e, is because someone said that they didnt like trip as an encouter power (claiming it unrealistic that everyone cant trip all the time).

As, Moochava, said.. You can describe your character attempting to trip all the time you want, you'll just get a regular melee attack (the low swing, the shove, the attempt to knock them over), you just wont have a chance to actually trip them unless you use the trip power.. That'll be the time when all the conditions for a succesful trip attempt are just right (opponent is in the right position compared to you, or he is off-balance, dropped his guard, distracted, or whatever seems a reasonable explantion that a trip attempt would be successful).

 

[DandD]

The benchmark is fantasy battles. Be it anime, cartoons, western fantasy novels, kung fu-flicks, action movies, whatever...

I know that I'm going to let trip and grapple be normal manoevres. Combat advantage being a prerequisite to do this would be okay, I say.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

one of the first thing you learn in martial arts and fighting styles is to have a good stand. So tripping someone should be a hard maneuver.

maybe you know a maneuver which you can use in the right circumstance to exploit a mistake of your opponent. I could see a houserule which gives free usable exploits when some enemy fumbles in melee.

Example:
DMs turn: your enemy tries to hit you but stumbles into your direction (critical miss) seemingly quite offbalance.
Players turn: I try to hit him with my staff on the back so that he falls to the ground.
DM: roll str vs reflex and do double weapon damage.

 

[DandD]

That's perhaps another nice idea. If somebody rolls a 1, he automatically grants his enemy a combat advantage, and then, one can try to trip/grapple/ninja-back-kick-flip/throw a pie in his face and other fancy manoevres, without needing some fancy special power or feat.

 

[Bagpuss]

Just say that trip is an Attack vs Reflex, and if you hit, they are knocked prone. Easy as pie. But I guess that would be too difficult for us gamers to remember. :\

It's not that it would be too difficult to remember, its how do you balance it. Either you make it really hard to do, or give very little advantage, in which case it will rarely get done so when someone does decide to do it, it's time to break out the rulebook (like grapple in 3rd Ed). Or you make it straight forward or with a significant advantage, in which case at least one player will do it every round to keep the opponent on the floor or getting up and suffering penalties (like the folks that exploited trip in 3rd Ed).

Or you try and reflect the genre of fantasy film and fiction, straight forward, gives a significant advantage, but still only occurs rarely. You don't see everyone tripping all the time in the fantasy genre, hence it needs to be a per encounter power, not a at-will one.

 

[Dragonblade]

IMO, 3e trip fails on both a gamist level (its too good) and from a simulationist perspective (its utility in the ruleset causes it to be used far out of proportion to its effectiveness in a realistic fight).

Despite what the Cobra Kai sensei would have you believe, "sweep the leg" doesn't really work. That's probably why they got their butts kicked by a kid who learned martial arts from doing yard work and household chores.

Now if you are a professional Muay Thai kickboxer, or have a black belt in Kyokushin, well then you have a kick that hits harder than a baseball bat, so I'm inclined to give you your Trip.

But against opponents wielding armor and weapons? Hmm, not so much. And for Joe Blow fighter? Hmm...not without taking some feats or powers to represent your expertise.

IMO, Per Encounter strikes a nice balance between gamism and simulationism in my book. I'm happy with that.

And in movies, wuxia, and anime, I don't see tripping so much. People usually get knocked down or knocked back as a result of getting hit while in the air, or with a straight on blow as a cinematic demonstration of their opponents overwhelming power.

 

[Stalker0]

So sure, make "effective trip attack that also does damage" a per-encounter power. But give us the basic, usually non-optimal, option - because sometimes the situation warrants it.

This I can agree with. I have no problems with a suboptimal trip mechanic coupled with a trip power. In the rare instances when a player wants to trip due to special circumstances..then let them. And if they want to be good at it, let them use the power.