TROLL POLL #2: Feats or Famine?

[Storminator]

I really need to play a fighter. I keep finding cool feats and adding them to the list of feats my PCs need to take... Another 20 levels or so and my PCs will be complete!

PS

 

[Celebrim]

"(I hate the one from Sword & Fist that gives you attacks of opportunity plus more against monsters with Improved Grab.)"

You are thinking of 'Close Quarters Combat', and speaking as a DM that is just about my favorite feat.

If the players have that feat, it lets me actually use a creature with Improved Grab without risking a TPK. Improved Grab is ROUGH, if you play the monster ruthlessly and understand the grappling rules. And I do mean _ROUGH_.

Again, speaking as a DM, 'Improved Initiative' is about my least favorite feat. Most well made parties can dish out enough damage to kill anything near thier CR in one or two turns. Even after squashing power gamers trying to cheat by misreporting thier initiative, improved initiative plus decent dex means that in alot of cases my monsters never even have a chance to go. See monster. Kill monster. It's as simple as that. Without a chance to display its prowess, the monster doesn't engender the respect I want it to (even if the damage it ends up doing isn't that consequential).

 

[Nail]

Well, then have the monster surprise the PCs.

"We don't need no stinkin' initiative."

 

[The Sigil]

I have to agree that there gets to be a certain amount of laziness in feat design. A lot of designers ignore the negative implication of feats - using the example above, if you make a feat for Shield Surfing (rather than a skill check) then the implication is that NO ONE without the feat can shield surf.

I find the best feats are tied to new systems or skill uses. If you say "Shield Surfing is a Balance check, DC 25. A failed check leaves you flat-footed." Then you've established it can be done, but it ain't easy and set up a consequence to actively discourage amateur shield surfers. It also lays the groundwork for a good feat like Shield Surfing, with a prerequisite of "Balance 6+ ranks" (makes sense since you'r gonna be making Balance checks) and a benefit of "You gain a +8 to Balance checks to perform a Shield Surfing action (see Balance skill, page XX). Further, if you fail this check, you do not become flat footed." Viola, anyone can try but a person with the feat looks good doing it, even if he fails. When you find a books that adds a variety activities and support, and the feats to go with it, you are getting a complete sub-sytem, and not just some feat-fodder.

I'm also fond of finding new books that feats for use outside of combat/spell casting that I'd actually want to take. Unfortunately, since the skill use side of the game is often anemic compared to the love lavished on killin' things, such feats are rare. Hard to have feats for exceptional guile and grace in a courtly setting, when there are few rules for interation in a court to begin with...

I think you have hit the nail on the head here.

Feats, to me, are one of the most improperly used features of the d20 game. And I speak as a d20 publisher (a small one, but a d20 publisher nonetheless).

I try to divide my thinking on "how can this be done" into four camps:

1.) Clear-cut Skill Use

2.) Special Maneuver/Technique - anyone can try this, but it's hard to do - apply a DC to a skill roll, ability check, attack roll, or some combination of the above. This should not be a Feat, though a Feat that aids you in pulling it off or mitigates some of the negative circumstances associated with failure is okay.

3.) "Non-magical" special training - This, to me, should be covered by Feats. You flat-out can't even attempt it without training because it's either too hard or it's a "breaks the normal rules" (a good example of this, to me, is Whirlwind Attack - it is far enough away from the normal "attack progression rules" as to need a SINGLE separate mechanic). Metamagic feats also fall into this category - it's a form of of "mundane" training even though the Feat's effects apply to spells.

4.) "Magical" special training - This is stuff that you simply cannot do without the aid of magic. A Supernatural ability is the quintessential example. For instance, learning how to "phase through a wall" to attack your quarry as an assassin - no amount of mundane training would let you do this. I favor making these (a) class abilities of a Prestige Class or (b) things for which a direct XP expenditure is required (similar to crafting a magic item).

In my view, if you could even attempt something without special training, it should be a maneuver. For instance, "Attacking an opponent's weapon" - you can do it without special training, but training makes it easier.

Deflecting an arrow with a Reflex save - this falls slightly outside the "normal" system (in which AC already incorporates the dodge/deflect ability of the target) - so as a single mechanic outside the normal system, this deserves a Feat. The reason that the untrained character can't try it is that it's already assumed in Armor Class calculation.

Hurling a longsword - certainly this could be tried IRL without training... you don't need a Feat for it, you just need a mechanic (e.g., 5' increment, -4 nonproficiency penalty for no proficiency in "thrown longsword"). However a "longsword thrower" Feat (which eliminates the -4 penalty and increases the increment to 10') is in order.

Basically, I wish publishers would look at something and ask, "could normal Joe Schmoe try it with a reasonable chance of success?" If the answer is, "yes," it needs to be a maneuver, not a Feat... and the Feat should make the maneuver "easier to do." Making that distinction alone would go a long way.

--The Sigil

 

[Nail]

I think you have hit the nail on the head here.

Feats, to me, are one of the most improperly used features of the d20 game. And I speak as a d20 publisher (a small one, but a d20 publisher nonetheless).

Good points.....so, what do you publish?

 

[The Sigil]

Mostly PDF Sourcebooks. I currently have two of them available: The Enchiridion of Mystic Music and the Enchiridion of Treasures and Objects d'Art. The third in the series, The Enchiridion of Elided Enduements of the Expanse has been put on hold pending the release of 3.5e - and I have some other projects currently in development - my goal is to get three more products out by the end of the year (we'll see - I'm notorious for missing deadlines). My publishing home page hasn't been updated in a while, but here it is:

http://www.cooleys.org/publishing/

I've also put out a freebie d20 Adventure, the Burning Sage's Demense adventure (a winner of Eric Noah's 3e Adventure Contest). A spiffy PDF version can be found at RPGNow.com - check my site above for a link. ENWorld reviews of my products can be found here:

Click this link

Also, you may have seen the ENWorld d20 news article last month on my latest endeavor, the OGC spells database...

http://www.cooleys.org/ogc/spells/

--The Sigil

 

[The Sigil]

The other consideration to remember with Feats is that the average character only gets seven. I try to keep this in mind so, too... make a lot of cool Feats, and a character still can't try them all out.

Feats, IMO should be used for:

"Breaking the rules slightly" (a major change to rules requires a separate system, not just a Feat)
or
"Improving your ability to perform a specialized skill."

And that's it. IMO, using them for any other purpose is missing the point of what a Feat should be. YMMV, etc.

--The Sigil

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Even after squashing power gamers trying to cheat by misreporting thier initiative ....

That's not powergaming, that's straight cheating.


My problem with feats is that there are several really crappy feats out there. Sometimes I wonder whether they just want to outdo each other with ever more powerful feats, instead of more inventive or just plain better ones. Not all feats and books with feats are that way, but some are notorious for it.

Examples:

• Several feats in the Quint books, including the one for 2xSTR on damage for two-handed weapons or the one that increases sneak attack to d8 (not sure whether that's a Quint feat, though)
• Some stuff from Kingdoms of Kalamar (I don't quite remember, but I think there was some magic or metamagic feat that gave you incredibly high save DCs)
• The Dark Blessing Feat from one of those Drow Guides (Complete Guide to Drow?). It gave you outrageous bonuses.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Rather than flooding the forum with multiple polls, please allow the previous one to close before opening a new one. Thanks.

 

[Tonguez]

Me I love Feats I wish we could get rid of class abilities and just plug in feats instead!

To me a general Feat should be the equivalent of a first level class ability. Higher level abilities are covered by Feat Chains and their prereqs.

I agree Feats that mimic skill use are flawed but then so is the whole concept of Prestige classes for every cool shtick especially when those Shticks can be covered by a creative feat...