D&D 5E True Seeing vs Invisibility/Mind Blank

[Oofta]

Well, the True Seeing spell specifically grants you the Truesight ability, so his response would seem to apply to the spell as well.

It seems to say that Truesight granted by a spell is different from Truesight that is an innate ability.

I just find that overly finicky, maybe I'm just overthinking it. Or it could just be a tweet and not something he put a lot of thought into. I don't put too much faith in the tweets, unlike the actual sage advice column.

I'm not saying I'm right - just that I think it's more consistent to rule that truesight is truesight is truesight.

 

[Stalker0]

It doesn't seem to be particularly consistent, because other related posts say that truesight is not affected by nondetection which hides you from divination magic.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/11/17/does-nondetection-spell-hide-you-from-a-monsters-truesight/

Does nondetection also hide you from a monster's truesight?
Jeremy Crawford [MENTION=4036]Jeremy[/MENTION]ECrawford
The nondetection spell hides you from divination magic. Truesight is a sense, not a form of divination magic.​

Which is part of why I don't put too much stock in the twitter responses, they aren't particularly detailed and can be confusing IMHO.

If the intent of his response is that a monster's truesight would detect someone but truesight granted by a spell would not ... well let's just say that it's not how I would rule.

The question in this case was specifically about a monster's truesight though. His response was consistent. Truesight for a monster is a sense (as per the MM), it is not a magic spell.

And I think the thread was come to a general consensus that a monster's truesight cannot be defeated by Mind Blank. What is still on the table, is the true seeing spell.

 

[Caliban]

It seems to say that Truesight granted by a spell is different from Truesight that is an innate ability.

I just find that overly finicky, maybe I'm just overthinking it. Or it could just be a tweet and not something he put a lot of thought into. I don't put too much faith in the tweets, unlike the actual sage advice column.

I'm not saying I'm right - just that I think it's more consistent to rule that truesight is truesight is truesight.

Good point. Honestly, I don't think they put a lot of effort into making the high level stuff consistent, since most campaigns end before you are dealing with 8th and 9th level spells or similar magic.

 

[Oofta]

The question in this case was specifically about a monster's truesight though. His response was consistent. Truesight for a monster is a sense (as per the MM), it is not a magic spell.

And I think the thread was come to a general consensus that a monster's truesight cannot be defeated by Mind Blank. What is still on the table, is the true seeing spell.

I just don't think it's helpful to treat an ability granted by a spell differently from that granted by a spell. To me, a dwarf and a human that has had the darkvision spell cast on them both have darkvision.

A related question would be: can a paladin's divine sense locate a vampire that has mind blank cast on them? Divine sense is not a spell from the divination school. It is still divination. So I would still rule that the vampire would not be detected, that the mind blank would negate the divine sense.

Is that the right answer? Heck if I know. For now it's the right answer for my campaign when I'm DMing.

 

[Ristamar]

I just don't think it's helpful to treat an ability granted by a spell differently from that granted by a spell. To me, a dwarf and a human that has had the darkvision spell cast on them both have darkvision.

The designers have already made this distinction in 5e. There is a difference between a thing that is magic due to an enchantment or spell versus something that is inherently magical by its very nature.

 

[neogod22]

You cared enough to respond to me. You seem a bit sensitive.

Hmm, you tried to report me? I'm actually speechless, well I'm not but time trying to refrain from making you cry.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

 

[Oofta]

The designers have already made this distinction in 5e. There is a difference between a thing that is magic due to an enchantment or spell versus something that is inherently magical by its very nature.

Can you provide a reference? Because I don't remember that distinction being made. Of course I don't remember what I had for breakfast most days so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed it.

 

[neogod22]

I would argue that the amulet does not protect the individual from True Seeing, as the spell does not create a scrying sensor (unless your want to go with the target's eyes becoming a scrying sensor, but that seems a bit far to me), and does not target the beneficiary of True Seeing.

For Mind Blank, I would hesitate about allowing True Seeing to overcome it. For one thing, it is an 8th level spell, and True Seeing is a sixth level effect. For another, the spell does say the recipient is immune to divination spells, and further goes on to say "The spell even foils wish Spells and Spells or effects of similar power used to affect the target's mind or to gain information about the target". That seems to emphasize that there really is no magical way around Mind Blank. I rule it does protect the invisible recipient from True Seeing.

But you can take the logic farther. Does this mean that the recipient of Mind Blank, when in melee with someone under the effects of the Foresight spell, can nullify the benefits of Foresight due to the fact that our Mind Blanked combatant is immune to divination spells, and the opponent could not be warned of coming attacks and actions? One could make that argument. I would probably not support making this ruling, but there is a logical path for it.

I don't believe the level of the spell has anything to do with the function of the spell because, Remove Curse, a 3rd level spell defeats all curses, including spells cast at higher level such as Contagion (5th level spell) and Create Thrall (Great Old one Warlock's level 14 ability which should be equal to a 7th level spell).

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

 

[neogod22]

I would argue that the amulet does not protect the individual from True Seeing, as the spell does not create a scrying sensor (unless your want to go with the target's eyes becoming a scrying sensor, but that seems a bit far to me), and does not target the beneficiary of True Seeing.

For Mind Blank, I would hesitate about allowing True Seeing to overcome it. For one thing, it is an 8th level spell, and True Seeing is a sixth level effect. For another, the spell does say the recipient is immune to divination spells, and further goes on to say "The spell even foils wish Spells and Spells or effects of similar power used to affect the target's mind or to gain information about the target". That seems to emphasize that there really is no magical way around Mind Blank. I rule it does protect the invisible recipient from True Seeing.

But you can take the logic farther. Does this mean that the recipient of Mind Blank, when in melee with someone under the effects of the Foresight spell, can nullify the benefits of Foresight due to the fact that our Mind Blanked combatant is immune to divination spells, and the opponent could not be warned of coming attacks and actions? One could make that argument. I would probably not support making this ruling, but there is a logical path for it.

I would say yes, mind blank will cancel out foresight because the spells are specific in their functions.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

 

[Ganymede81]

Good example. Is light a divination spell? Is the spell directly revealing anything about you? It is magically providing illumination. True sight is magically enhanced vision to 'see' you. Light does not magically enhance your vision. I think it is pretty clear that using magical means to divine information about the target is a no-go with Mind Blank. Otherwise the spell is much reduced in power and effectiveness.

Light isn't a divination spell, but it doesn't need to be as mind blank also protects from all magic that reveals information.

Light doesn't directly reveal anything about a mind blanked person, but neither does true seeing's grant of truesight.

If it helps, compare true seeing to darkvision instead: someone usjng the darkvision spell to see a mind blanked person in a dark room. They are both spells that magically enhance your eyes ability to see.