D&D 5E True Seeing vs Invisibility/Mind Blank

[Gadget]

Light isn't a divination spell, but it doesn't need to be as mind blank also protects from all magic that reveals information.

Light doesn't directly reveal anything about a mind blanked person, but neither does true seeing's grant of truesight.

If it helps, compare true seeing to darkvision instead: someone usjng the darkvision spell to see a mind blanked person in a dark room. They are both spells that magically enhance your eyes ability to see.

I would say that is debatable. The blanket immunity to divination spells really does seem to imply just that: you can't use those spells to reveal information about this person. I could see one going either way. What I personally think is less in doubt, is using something like Clairvoyance on the recipient of the Mind Blank spell. This would clearly fall under the category of a Divination spell that Mind Blank would protect against. Inserting verbiage like 'prevents you from being targeted by' really confuses the matter, as Clairvoyance does not have a target.

 

[Ristamar]

Can you provide a reference? Because I don't remember that distinction being made. Of course I don't remember what I had for breakfast most days so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed it.

Sure.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-february-2016

You might be thinking, “Dragons seem pretty magical to me.” And yes, they are extraordinary! Their description even says they’re magical. But our game makes a distinction between two types of magic:

1) The background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures.

2) The concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled to create a spell or other focused magical effect.

In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind. A monster like a dragon exists because of that magic-enhanced nature. The second type of magic is what the rules are concerned about. When a rule refers to something being magical, it’s referring to that second type. Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:

Is it a magic item?

Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?

Is it a spell attack?

Does its description say it’s magical?

If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical.

Let’s look at a white dragon’s Cold Breath and ask ourselves those questions. First, Cold Breath isn’t a magic item. Second, its description mentions no spell. Third, it’s not a spell attack. Fourth, the word “magical” appears nowhere in its description. Our conclusion: Cold Breath is not considered a magical game effect, even though we know that dragons are amazing, supernatural beings.

 

[Oofta]

Sure.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-february-2016

I'm not sure they exactly correlate, but I see where you're coming from. A fireball cast at the edge of an antimagic zone would not penetrate, but a dragon's breath would. I agree with that (and I knew about that article).

To me though, it's more akin to taking a torch that was lit by a scorching ray being taken into that antimagic zone. The torch is still a torch, it's still on fire. It doesn't matter that the fire was started by magic any more than truesight was granted by a spell.

At least that's how I rule for simplicity and consistency.

 

[neogod22]

Well, invisibility is an illusion hiding the target. Is seeing through an illusion actually gaining information about the target through divination magic, or is it piercing the veil of the illusion to see what's hidden behind it?

Let's postulate that there's an illusion of a wall between you and a Mind Blanked adversary. You cast True Sight. Can you see through the illusionary wall to see the Mind Blanked adversary? Replace the illusionary wall with an invisibility spell.

True Sight doesn't interact with the Mind Blank at all -- it alters the target to be immune to the effects of illusion and also to be able to see things otherwise not seeable (like naturally invisible things). Mink Blank has nothing to protect against because the effects of True Seeing are all on the target of True Seeing.

Likewise clairvoyance, which provides a magical window that you use your normal senses through. It doesn't interact with Mind Blank because it never touches Mind Blank.

Exactly but with the clairvoyance I disagree, because you're using the spell to find the target, not looking in an area and just seeing them. I think that's the difference.

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[neogod22]

Mind Blank defeats the True Seeing spell. Creatures with truesight, however, are not affected by Mind Blank since it presumably doesn't rely on divinations.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/06/27/alter-self-mind-blank-vs-truesight-what-wins/

If you cast true seeing, one of the benefits is gaining True Sight, so I don't understand how one works and the other don't by your logic.

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[Hriston]

If the source of your truesight is a divination spell, it is foiled by mind blank.

 

[Ristamar]

If you cast true seeing, one of the benefits is gaining True Sight, so I don't understand how one works and the other don't by your logic.

For the reason [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] mentioned. Truesight as an effect of divination is blocked. Truesight as an innate feature is not a divination, hence it is not blocked.

 

[Ristamar]

I'm not sure they exactly correlate, but I see where you're coming from. A fireball cast at the edge of an antimagic zone would not penetrate, but a dragon's breath would. I agree with that (and I knew about that article).

To me though, it's more akin to taking a torch that was lit by a scorching ray being taken into that antimagic zone. The torch is still a torch, it's still on fire. It doesn't matter that the fire was started by magic any more than truesight was granted by a spell.

At least that's how I rule for simplicity and consistency.

I understand your reasoning, and I don't think it will be a game breaker (though it brings into question the usefulness of Mind Blank as an 8th level spell).

If I was looking to house rule this for the sake of uniformity, I would likely have Mind Blank defeat all forms of truesight since historically the spell has trumped truesight, IIRC.

 

[Oofta]

I understand your reasoning, and I don't think it will be a game breaker (though it brings into question the usefulness of Mind Blank as an 8th level spell).

If I was looking to house rule this for the sake of uniformity, I would likely have Mind Blank defeat all forms of truesight since historically the spell has trumped truesight, IIRC.

Well, an invisible mind-blanked creature being viewed by someone with truesight from a trueseeing spell is a pretty edge case.

Mind Blank also prevents all scrying/detection methods, enchantments and so on. This just came up in game recently when someone tried to Dominate my archmage NPC (they pre-cast Mind Blank every day).

For those concerned with the source of the power I'm still curious how you would rule on the vampire with mind blank vs paladin's divine sense. Would it work where a detect evil/good would not?

 

[Ovinomancer]

I understand your reasoning, and I don't think it will be a game breaker (though it brings into question the usefulness of Mind Blank as an 8th level spell).

If I was looking to house rule this for the sake of uniformity, I would likely have Mind Blank defeat all forms of truesight since historically the spell has trumped truesight, IIRC.

And I half agree with you. If the Mind Blanked creature is a shapechanger, I'd agree that True Sight does not reveal this, as that's discerning information about the Mind Blanked creature. True Sight does work against Invisibility, because Invisibility is an illusion spell and not information about the Mind Blanked creature. Allowing Mind Blank to extend to illusions covering the Mind Blanked creature is a bit much. Preventing True Sight from discerning things about the Mind Blanked creature directly is on much more solid ground. Now, if the creature was naturally invisible, that's a bit more interesting but I'd prevent True Sight from being able to see the naturally invisible Mind Blanked creature.