Another thing you can do to speed up a combat is to consider most of the monsters to be grunts. If the PCs drop them to 1 to 5 hit points, consider the monster dead and move on. You don't have to do this for BBEGs and other leaders, but you can do it for the vast majority of the rest and it'll shave a minimum of one round off each encounter (and often more than a round).
D&D 4E Trying 4E Again
- Thread starter Stormonu
- Start date
TikkchikFenTikktikk
First Post
I am going to start here:
Here is the 4th Edition of Dungeons and Dragons in a nutshell: You are playing a character in a story. You can have your character do whatever you want them to do. When you try to do something that might fail, like hit another character, climb a cliff, or bluff the local police, I'll have your roll a twenty-sided die. We can add to or subtract from the roll based on conditions, but then if you equal or exceed the target number I set you succeed.
How can you not love a conflict resolution mechanic of such elegance?
I've been running 4E games since it came out in 2008. I do not subscribe to DDI, I start my campaigns with my players having access to only the PHB1, and (until I started running D&D Encounters at my FLGS which gives me a ridiculous discount I've taken full advantage of to buy almost every 4E book) only own the PHBI-III, MMI-III, DMGI-II, and AVI-II.
The amount of fun you and your player's have has nothing to do with how much money you put in WotC's coffers. The three core books are more than enough for a lifetime of fun.
Pencil it all in. IMHO it all makes the game better (except magic missile, not to threadcrap) especially for new players. It does this by clarify how things are supposed to work, which really, really help new players grok the rules.
By pencilling it it, you can still read the old text. Some of the errata is impossible to pencil in the white space available, so cut it out of the rules update printout and make a little note at the affected text that says "See Stealth Rules Insert". Then write "stealth" on the back of that insert for the few pages that will have more than one.
This has nothing to do with 4E and everything to do with the DM, IMHO.
If you want less combat and more role-playing, as the DM you have the power to provide fewer opportunities for combat and more for roleplaying. If your family is jumping into combat, role-play the bad guys more than you thought possible and then kill all of the PCs. Brutally. And make it clear that their deaths could have been avoided if they had parlayed with the big, bad, evil guy.
If you find what combat you **do** get into to take to long, remember this: You can modify the monsters as the DM. And the math to make balanced encounters is pretty easy. PCs and monsters should hit 60-70% of the time, so their expected attack role should be 2-4 higher than the defense of the target. (the expected attack role is 10 + the relevent attack modifiers). Expected damage should be enough to take down the target in 4-5 hits.
Limit the use of effects by monsters that can stun or reduce the mobility and actions of the PCs. When PCs get to high levels, their use of stun effect can get out of hand so be ready for that eventuality when you reach upper-paragon- and epic-tier play.
DMG2 is a great book and I would have purchased it before PHB3, especially if I was planning on running games.
Skill challenges alone are reason enough for 4E to exist. They are the greatest innovation to D&D since allowing elves to be clerics.
Here's what you have to do to make skill challenges work:
1. Start using them, and all the time. You will get better at creating them and you and your players will get better at role-playing them. You learn by doing, there is no other way.
2. Use the rules updates. 3 check failures for a challenge failure, varying successes for a challenge success.
3. Read skill challenges in recently published WotC material. I've seen them best used in the D&D Encounters season I and II adventures and in HS1 (Encounter 2: Enter the Town, for example).
4. Step back from the rules. Consider what would need to be done to achieve success in our world. Don't play the rules, play the story:
"There are three obvious paths into town: through the front gate at the northeast edge of town, crossing the river and sneaking through the kobold slum at the southwest edge of town, or through the forest and across bare farmland on the west or east edges of the Kiris Dahn," you say.
"We go through the front gate," says your son.
"So, your Paladin tells your mom and Aunt you are going in through the front gate and starts marching off. Mom, Aunt, how do your characters feel about this? What do they do?"
...
"You reach the river and start descending but find it extremely slippery. Make an acrobatics or athletics check. You succeed! Tell me what happened."
"You try to quietly slip through while the guards are talking. Make a stealth check. Oh, no. The goblin guards heard you! One runs off to, presumably, to sound an alarm or get help while the other keeps a close eye on you.
Etc.
Regardless of the rules, they shouldn't succeed until they've accomplished enough (crossed the river, gone through the ghetto, and entered the city) and should fail as soon as they screw up enough (attack the remaining guard who is just eyeing them suspiciously).
The adventure should give you plenty of plot hooks, and your son should be comfortable telling you what his character wants to do next. If neither is true, there is a table of plot-hooks in the DMGI along with lots of advise on creating challenges between your PCs and their goal.
Your job as DM is to create opportunities for your players to fail.
Good luck, have fun.
Here is the 4th Edition of Dungeons and Dragons in a nutshell: You are playing a character in a story. You can have your character do whatever you want them to do. When you try to do something that might fail, like hit another character, climb a cliff, or bluff the local police, I'll have your roll a twenty-sided die. We can add to or subtract from the roll based on conditions, but then if you equal or exceed the target number I set you succeed.
How can you not love a conflict resolution mechanic of such elegance?
I've been running 4E games since it came out in 2008. I do not subscribe to DDI, I start my campaigns with my players having access to only the PHB1, and (until I started running D&D Encounters at my FLGS which gives me a ridiculous discount I've taken full advantage of to buy almost every 4E book) only own the PHBI-III, MMI-III, DMGI-II, and AVI-II.
The amount of fun you and your player's have has nothing to do with how much money you put in WotC's coffers. The three core books are more than enough for a lifetime of fun.
Pencil it all in. IMHO it all makes the game better (except magic missile, not to threadcrap) especially for new players. It does this by clarify how things are supposed to work, which really, really help new players grok the rules.
By pencilling it it, you can still read the old text. Some of the errata is impossible to pencil in the white space available, so cut it out of the rules update printout and make a little note at the affected text that says "See Stealth Rules Insert". Then write "stealth" on the back of that insert for the few pages that will have more than one.
This has nothing to do with 4E and everything to do with the DM, IMHO.
If you want less combat and more role-playing, as the DM you have the power to provide fewer opportunities for combat and more for roleplaying. If your family is jumping into combat, role-play the bad guys more than you thought possible and then kill all of the PCs. Brutally. And make it clear that their deaths could have been avoided if they had parlayed with the big, bad, evil guy.
If you find what combat you **do** get into to take to long, remember this: You can modify the monsters as the DM. And the math to make balanced encounters is pretty easy. PCs and monsters should hit 60-70% of the time, so their expected attack role should be 2-4 higher than the defense of the target. (the expected attack role is 10 + the relevent attack modifiers). Expected damage should be enough to take down the target in 4-5 hits.
Limit the use of effects by monsters that can stun or reduce the mobility and actions of the PCs. When PCs get to high levels, their use of stun effect can get out of hand so be ready for that eventuality when you reach upper-paragon- and epic-tier play.
DMG2 is a great book and I would have purchased it before PHB3, especially if I was planning on running games.
Skill challenges alone are reason enough for 4E to exist. They are the greatest innovation to D&D since allowing elves to be clerics.
Here's what you have to do to make skill challenges work:
1. Start using them, and all the time. You will get better at creating them and you and your players will get better at role-playing them. You learn by doing, there is no other way.
2. Use the rules updates. 3 check failures for a challenge failure, varying successes for a challenge success.
3. Read skill challenges in recently published WotC material. I've seen them best used in the D&D Encounters season I and II adventures and in HS1 (Encounter 2: Enter the Town, for example).
4. Step back from the rules. Consider what would need to be done to achieve success in our world. Don't play the rules, play the story:
"There are three obvious paths into town: through the front gate at the northeast edge of town, crossing the river and sneaking through the kobold slum at the southwest edge of town, or through the forest and across bare farmland on the west or east edges of the Kiris Dahn," you say.
"We go through the front gate," says your son.
"So, your Paladin tells your mom and Aunt you are going in through the front gate and starts marching off. Mom, Aunt, how do your characters feel about this? What do they do?"
...
"You reach the river and start descending but find it extremely slippery. Make an acrobatics or athletics check. You succeed! Tell me what happened."
"You try to quietly slip through while the guards are talking. Make a stealth check. Oh, no. The goblin guards heard you! One runs off to, presumably, to sound an alarm or get help while the other keeps a close eye on you.
Etc.
Regardless of the rules, they shouldn't succeed until they've accomplished enough (crossed the river, gone through the ghetto, and entered the city) and should fail as soon as they screw up enough (attack the remaining guard who is just eyeing them suspiciously).
The adventure should give you plenty of plot hooks, and your son should be comfortable telling you what his character wants to do next. If neither is true, there is a table of plot-hooks in the DMGI along with lots of advise on creating challenges between your PCs and their goal.
Your job as DM is to create opportunities for your players to fail.
Good luck, have fun.
Objection! The absolute last thing you want to do when introducing newbies to the game is kill their characters!!!
Sure, when PCs get to cocky and they think they can solve everything with combat, they need a friendly reminder that they can lose a fight...
But there is a difference between losing a fight and rocks fall everyone dies! There are many alternatives that don't ruin everyone's day and break the trust between DM and player:
* Allow them to surrender with an appropriate penalty (hand over some items, do a job for the bad guys, be imprisoned and interrogated...)
* Allow them to flee
You want the players to learn to identify with their characters and learn to live a story. If their PC can die too easily (without a major screwup on the player part, or a memorable, heroic death) then players will avoid identifying with their characters at any cost and you have exactly the problem you tried to avoid at hand - players who don't treat their PCs as more than a collection of stats and a mini on a battlemat.
D'karr
Adventurer
With the party mix you have described your combats will take too long simply because the party doesn;t have enough damage output.
My recommendations:
My 10 year old son plays with our regular group and he is having a blast (literally) with his dragonborn fighter. Put a few minions in front of him and his dragon breath will make everyone happy.
Good luck and remember the idea is to have fun. It is a game of the imagination, not of mechanics and rules.
My recommendations:
- Don't use encounters that are above their level
- Use lots of minions - dragonborn love minions
- Don't use soldiers
- Modify monster HP to account for the fact that you are missing 2 party members from the default party of 5
- Don't use soldiers
- Modify all encounters for 3 players rather than the default 5
- Monsters don't have to fight to the death - When monsters reach bloodied they attempt to flee.
- Don't use soldiers
- With no leader, you will absolutely need alternate ways of healing in combat (potions, etc.)
- Skill challenges are only as good as you make them. Give them a goal and let them figure out how to accomplish it. Ascertain the likelyhood of their solution being easy/moderate/hard and let them know that they think something is easy/moderate/hard. Don't become a slave to the mechanic, the mechanic is only a framework. If they FAIL, it is not the end of the world, make sure that it has consequences but that skill challenges do not become a dead-end.
My 10 year old son plays with our regular group and he is having a blast (literally) with his dragonborn fighter. Put a few minions in front of him and his dragon breath will make everyone happy.
Good luck and remember the idea is to have fun. It is a game of the imagination, not of mechanics and rules.
Shin Okada
Explorer
Now we can download Upgraded version of KotS on WotC website.
Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Try DnD
There are 14 magic item treasures in the adventure, not counting potions. So, if a DM replace those magic items into ones (of the same level) which PCs can use, maybe referring to players' wish lists, almost all of the big 3 slots should be filled. Then PCs can buy some +1 items with monies they gain.
TikkchikFenTikktikk
First Post
At the risk of diverting the conversation, let me say I think this is a difference in philosophy and I don't think there is any right or wrong answer.
However, I like killing new players early in the life of their character. The timing is important. I want them to have begun to get a feel for the character. But then, especially if they have stopped being cautious, if they've started thinking their character is invincible, I stomp them.
It is a wakeup call that the actions of your character have real consequences in game and regardless of how powerful they think they are, there are always more powerful things in the universe.
Usually I'll temper the death in the next session with them waking up naked in a dungeon cell, or being pressed into service of the BBEG they were working to defeat, or any number of plot twist situations.
I'm the DM, so hitting your bloodied value expressed as a negative number can mean permanent death, or it can mean your character is now my plaything.
nicholasgeorg
First Post
I just finished running HS1, and it was the most fun I've had running a game in a really long time. So wonderfully open ended, and it has the possibility for a TPK lurking around every corner. The new monster stat blocks are fantastic.
My primary game is at level 18 right now, so this level 1 adventure was a total breath of fresh air. Recommendations as a 4e DM:
First, if your players are ok with it, I'd strongly consider using inherent bonuses (these are in DMG2, it's the best gaming book I've ever read, seriously must own if you home brew adventures at all). The magic item economy in 4e is sort of lame and requires a lot of prep work to make it better, and the administrative headaches during encounter design of making sure everyones gotten +x weapons and armor, and who hasn't gotten anything in a while, etc, feels like such a waste of time. Using inherent bonuses bakes the enhancement bonuses from magic weapons and armor directly into their characters stats as they advance. It keeps them feeling like people and not like whiny children at Christmas crossed with mr potato head. It also makes a magic sword into a very big deal. It also means they find lots of treasure, and at low levels especially, it's fun to figure out how to get this loot all home again.
Second, the Monster Builder lets you quickly adjust a monsters level, making adapting adventures from earlier editions much easier. I've found that 3e adventures have great adventure sites that are pretty easy to sketch out encounter areas from. Make no mistake though, lots of work, though nothing like earlier editions.
Third, make it tough. If the game is too easy and there is no threat of danger, it can get boring fast.
Fourth, page 42. (errata'd of course)
My primary game is at level 18 right now, so this level 1 adventure was a total breath of fresh air. Recommendations as a 4e DM:
First, if your players are ok with it, I'd strongly consider using inherent bonuses (these are in DMG2, it's the best gaming book I've ever read, seriously must own if you home brew adventures at all). The magic item economy in 4e is sort of lame and requires a lot of prep work to make it better, and the administrative headaches during encounter design of making sure everyones gotten +x weapons and armor, and who hasn't gotten anything in a while, etc, feels like such a waste of time. Using inherent bonuses bakes the enhancement bonuses from magic weapons and armor directly into their characters stats as they advance. It keeps them feeling like people and not like whiny children at Christmas crossed with mr potato head. It also makes a magic sword into a very big deal. It also means they find lots of treasure, and at low levels especially, it's fun to figure out how to get this loot all home again.
Second, the Monster Builder lets you quickly adjust a monsters level, making adapting adventures from earlier editions much easier. I've found that 3e adventures have great adventure sites that are pretty easy to sketch out encounter areas from. Make no mistake though, lots of work, though nothing like earlier editions.
Third, make it tough. If the game is too easy and there is no threat of danger, it can get boring fast.
Fourth, page 42. (errata'd of course)
eamon
Explorer
Relevant updates:
As for not having a leader: Hand our lots of healing potions, grant free leader-multiclass feats, encourage usage of dwarves. Also good to know: triggering an allies second wind is a DC 10 heal check. If they happen to forget whether the second wind was used, it's just DC 15 to stabilize the dying - so it's OK to try. In general, not having a leader is maybe actually a good thing for your group: you want fast combats, and that group won't survive long ones
. Use monsters that do a lot of damage but die quickly; i.e. deal double damage but have a third of the hitpoints or so (this makes minions more powerful, of course).
- For multi-keyword damage, the weakest resistance counts.
- Zone & Aura damage stack.
- Conjurations don't occupy squares
- Various skill-related stuff, notably stealth, but also movement related. Some skill checks had nonsense action type (e.g. move actions rather than automatic as part of a move)
- Marks end when marker is unconscious.
- Non-horizontal forced movement works the way common sense suggests.
- Flying rules have completely changed; in particular no minimum fly speed anymore.
- Vertical teleportation is OK; teleportation grants a save whenever forced movement would (but making the save doesn't make you prone).
- Charge works kind of like a pull - each square must bring you closer.
- Aid another DC is 10 + half level of target.
As for not having a leader: Hand our lots of healing potions, grant free leader-multiclass feats, encourage usage of dwarves. Also good to know: triggering an allies second wind is a DC 10 heal check. If they happen to forget whether the second wind was used, it's just DC 15 to stabilize the dying - so it's OK to try. In general, not having a leader is maybe actually a good thing for your group: you want fast combats, and that group won't survive long ones
. Use monsters that do a lot of damage but die quickly; i.e. deal double damage but have a third of the hitpoints or so (this makes minions more powerful, of course).
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