Turn Undead should be removed!

[ruleslawyer]

Ah so. I guess I don't really mind it, since as it stands, some groups will have everyone else back away while the rogue disarms the trap, so either a) he uses trap sense + evasion + a superior Reflex save to avoid it, and everyone's fine; or b) he's boned and everyone else isn't. Neither particularly interest me as far as consequences go, but as you said, that's a problem with the implementation of traps in 3e.

 

[Klaus]

Well, I think the issue with using ranged legerdemain is that using your mage hand as a little remote-controlled bomb-disarming robot kind of trivializes traps. Not that I'm a big advocate for trap implementation in 3e, mind you; I just know where they were coming from.

It's a simple matter of stating that the character can only do that with Mage Hands he casts himself, not those created by outside items (like wands or scrolls).

This lets an Arcane Trickster decide how much of his resources he devotes to one of his signature abilities.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Turn Undead? Who cares about that when you can CRIT ZOMBIES!

Is there a Shotgun domain?

 

[Dausuul]

What I hope is that there is a simple guideline for balancing undead encounters when there's a cleric in the party. For instance, "A party with access to Turn Undead should be treated as 1 level higher than it actually is when preparing encounters with undead." (Or, if the designers prefer that clerics be present by default, "A party without access to Turn Undead should be treated as 1 level lower than it actually is when preparing encounters with undead.")

That allows the traditional concept to remain, while addressing the balance issue. In fact, one might expand the guideline to cover all kinds of special attacks specific to a creature type.

I also think that the turning mechanic should be expanded to include "corrupted" extraplanar beings such as devils and demons.

 

[Clavis]

Seriously. The ability also makes little sense, especailly when you are playing a homebrew which has no deities.

In my campaign there is a Philosopher class with many of the same abilities of clerics, but based on superior understanding of humanity and the Universe, rather than devotion to gods. They can debunk undead, rather than turn them. It functions much like turning, except that a success means that the Philosopher has convinced everyone that the corpses aren't really moving, the apparent ghosts are really just mists and shadows, etc. The previously placed undead monster just becomes an ordinary corpse if it was corporeal, or disappears if it was incorporeal.

 

[mhensley]

In my campaign there is a Philosopher class with many of the same abilities of clerics, but based on superior understanding of humanity and the Universe, rather than devotion to gods. They can debunk undead, rather than turn them. It functions much like turning, except that a success means that the Philosopher has convinced everyone that the corpses aren't really moving, the apparent ghosts are really just mists and shadows, etc. The previously placed undead monster just becomes an ordinary corpse if it was corporeal, or disappears if it was incorporeal.

At higher levels can they prove that a living creature doesn't exist and cause it go poof as well? Dragons are merely figments of the imagination...

 

[Clavis]

At higher levels can they prove that a living creature doesn't exist and cause it go poof as well? Dragons are merely figments of the imagination...

No, because Dragons are "natural" creatures, with rationally explainable physiologies. Demons and other outsiders, on the other hand, can be debunked and made to disappear. When it happens in game, either I or the player explains how the other PCs thought they saw something weird, but it was never really there, and all the damage they took came from fright-induced heart attacks, accidentally wounding themselves with their weapons, etc.

The downside of it for Philosophers is that they can't accept divine miracles, even when one would benefit them. They can't be easily healed by god-worshiping clerics, although Philosophers can heal themselves or others (because of their knowledge of medicine, hypnotism and the "vibrations" that underly reality).

 

[Sitara]

What if a demon cast finger of death successfuly on a pc and the pc dies. After the battle, can the philosopher convince the pc he didn't really die? Honest question here.

 

[Clavis]

What if a demon cast finger of death successfuly on a pc and the pc dies. After the battle, can the philosopher convince the pc he didn't really die? Honest question here.

No, because as far as the Philosopher is concerned, the PC died from a heart attack brought on by irrational fright. (Raise Dead isn't on the list of Philosopher "marvels")

Of course, even Philosophers experience things that look an awful lot like undead and demons, which they are sometimes unable to adaquately explain away. For my part, I never make it clear in the campaign whether or not Gods and the like actually exist or not. The debate is a recurring theme.

 

[Mercule]

No, because Dragons are "natural" creatures, with rationally explainable physiologies.

I do not think that means what you think it means.