Tweaking Metamagic

[Yunru]

Three changes I'd like some help sounding out:
1) Restricting metamagic to Sorcerer spells - This is mostly a fix to prevent three level dips for metamagic given:
2) Remove the sorcery point cost for using metamagic - With the exception of twinning high-end spells, or using a high-end spell that does repeatable damage and quickening others, the most I can see happening is double Firebolt becoming popular, but that still does less damage than (Agonizing) Eldritch Blast with Hex.
3) Doubling the number of metamagics given - this os just a personal thing. It allows Sorcerers to eventually get all the (present) metamagic options.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

2) Remove the sorcery point cost for using metamagic - With the exception of twinning high-end spells, or using a high-end spell that does repeatable damage and quickening others, the most I can see happening is double Firebolt becoming popular, but that still does less damage than (Agonizing) Eldritch Blast with Hex.

"Remove your helmet when driving a motorcycle - With the exception of severe brain trauma, or spinal injury resulting in lifetime paralysis, the most I can see happening is your hair getting mussed by the wind."

What is this I don't even

 

[Yunru]

"Remove your helmet when driving a motorcycle - With the exception of severe brain trauma, or spinal injury resulting in lifetime paralysis, the most I can see happening is your hair getting mussed by the wind."

What is this I don't even

Be helpful or don't bother posting. Kthnxbye.


By the time said high level spells become an issue, the Sorcerer has enough points to spend on the metamagic anyway, so removing the cost has little impact on them.

 

[DEFCON 1]

3) Doubling the number of metamagics given - this is just a personal thing. It allows Sorcerers to eventually get all the (present) metamagic options.

The one thing about this I would agree with you on is that I do think that because there is definitely a hierarchy here in terms of which metamagics are more often useful or more powerful than others... because the Sorcerer gets so few selections the ones that are situational do not tend to get taken as much. So in conjunction with what you state above, my impulse would be to split the various metamagics up into two lists just like they did with the Ranger's Favored Enemy-- a less powerful or more situational pool of metamagics to choose from first... and then at a later level the second pool of more often useful and more powerful ones.

Thus the Sorcerer would get to select more metamagics overall than what he has currently... but he would also not be able to just go full-on OP right off the bat. A Distant Spell or Extended Spell or Subtle Spell would be in the mix along with the expected Twinned/Quickened/Empowered usual selections.

 

[Satyrn]

Why not just give him all the "weaker" ones right off the bat. Since they're just situational, this just em0hasizes his flexibility.

And then, let him select, like, one (or two) of the strong ones as his signature

 

[Jago]

2) Remove the sorcery point cost for using metamagic - With the exception of twinning high-end spells, or using a high-end spell that does repeatable damage and quickening others, the most I can see happening is double Firebolt becoming popular, but that still does less damage than (Agonizing) Eldritch Blast with Hex.

At lower levels, this is still feels extremely powerful though.

I can always cast without ever alerting anyone to my doing so and I can't be stopped with a Silence spell or being restrained?

I'm always giving Disadvantage to enemy saves on spells like Blindness/Deafness or Hold Person? Granted, it's only on the first save, but even the Blind condition for 1 round basically ends the fight once the rest of the party jumps in.

I can Quicken any spell forever, basically meaning I'm always casting as a Bonus Action because why wouldn't I unless I'm converting SP to Spell Slots? Also meaning that I can always follow up with a Cantrip on top of that, which by the time I'm high enough level to get the extra dice means it's going to be Empowered Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost, and Shocking Grasp to just stack on the damage. Or I can even Quicken True Strike and then make sure my follow up attack Cantrip is basically always hitting, which accuracy is a big part of keeping 5E balanced.

It's not really the High-End spells I would be worried by, it would be lower-end play where a 3rd Level Sorcerer now can cast Empowered Scorching Ray and Heightened Web at will, or always follow their Quickened Whatever with a damaging cantrip right behind it.



I'd have to think on it more, but at first glance this seems to really heavily tip things towards keeping the Sorcerer a blaster, but one that has a howitzer instead of a rifle, especially if you eventually get all the MetaMagic options anyway, so the inclination would be to take the most powerful ones out the door, and then every Sorcerer ends up the same in the end anyway, with Empowered, Quickened Fireballs followed by Empowered Fire Bolts.

I like the idea of making Metamagic more flexible and useable: it's a key feature of the Class and one that could use some expansion, but I also think there needs to be a balance between Sorcery Point spending, Honestly, if the Sorcerer just got more Sorcery Points in general per level, that helps them flex that Metamagic muscle while still not being overly concerned that they'll run out and not be able to conjure up another Spell Slot, but it still keeps it where they need to balance between either More Spells or Better Spells.

Also, just some more Metamagic options in General. Maximized Spell is sorely lacking and would be an awesome nova option for when the enemy really needs to just go away. Or what about Enlarge Spell, making AoEs affect a wider area for when you really just need to put 20 kobolds to Sleep? Or Intensify Spell to cast at a Spell Slot Level you don't actually have yet?


Your first point, restricting metamagic to only Sorcerer spells, I'm generally good with. I'd wish their spell list was expanded to help with this, but I understand the necessity to reign in some crazy MC that starts really unbalancing the Metamagic system. And again, the 3rd Point, I'm not sure on as it means every Sorcerer ends up the same, with all the options on the table. If there were more Metamagic options added, however, this would be a great bonus to help design a very flexible, but still unique playstyle.

 

[Yunru]

At lower levels, this is still feels extremely powerful though.

I can always cast without ever alerting anyone to my doing so and I can't be stopped with a Silence spell or being restrained?

I'm always giving Disadvantage to enemy saves on spells like Blindness/Deafness or Hold Person? Granted, it's only on the first save, but even the Blind condition for 1 round basically ends the fight once the rest of the party jumps in.

I can Quicken any spell forever, basically meaning I'm always casting as a Bonus Action because why wouldn't I unless I'm converting SP to Spell Slots? Also meaning that I can always follow up with a Cantrip on top of that, which by the time I'm high enough level to get the extra dice means it's going to be Empowered Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost, and Shocking Grasp to just stack on the damage. Or I can even Quicken True Strike and then make sure my follow up attack Cantrip is basically always hitting, which accuracy is a big part of keeping 5E balanced.

It's not really the High-End spells I would be worried by, it would be lower-end play where a 3rd Level Sorcerer now can cast Empowered Scorching Ray and Heightened Web at will, or always follow their Quickened Whatever with a damaging cantrip right behind it.



I'd have to think on it more, but at first glance this seems to really heavily tip things towards keeping the Sorcerer a blaster, but one that has a howitzer instead of a rifle, especially if you eventually get all the MetaMagic options anyway, so the inclination would be to take the most powerful ones out the door, and then every Sorcerer ends up the same in the end anyway, with Empowered, Quickened Fireballs followed by Empowered Fire Bolts.

I like the idea of making Metamagic more flexible and useable: it's a key feature of the Class and one that could use some expansion, but I also think there needs to be a balance between Sorcery Point spending, Honestly, if the Sorcerer just got more Sorcery Points in general per level, that helps them flex that Metamagic muscle while still not being overly concerned that they'll run out and not be able to conjure up another Spell Slot, but it still keeps it where they need to balance between either More Spells or Better Spells.

Also, just some more Metamagic options in General. Maximized Spell is sorely lacking and would be an awesome nova option for when the enemy really needs to just go away. Or what about Enlarge Spell, making AoEs affect a wider area for when you really just need to put 20 kobolds to Sleep? Or Intensify Spell to cast at a Spell Slot Level you don't actually have yet?


Your first point, restricting metamagic to only Sorcerer spells, I'm generally good with. I'd wish their spell list was expanded to help with this, but I understand the necessity to reign in some crazy MC that starts really unbalancing the Metamagic system. And again, the 3rd Point, I'm not sure on as it means every Sorcerer ends up the same, with all the options on the table. If there were more Metamagic options added, however, this would be a great bonus to help design a very flexible, but still unique playstyle.

This. This is the sort of feedback I crave.

While I am concerned that it may be over the top, with the exception of empowered a Sorcerer can only do one of those things at a time. For a rough outline I always like to be more permisive. Sure a completely silent Sorcerer is more powerful, but if it makes the feel more unique from other casters, I'm all for it (but would still aim for balance).

 

[Jago]

Hrm. Fair point, that you really only get like 1 Option per spell unless you take Empowered. My fear, though, is that if it's free to use, why wouldn't you take Empowered? You're gaining a massive power-up to most of your spells and you can still combine that with Quickened/Heightened/Careful/Subtle/Etc.

The main drawback to Metamagic (currently) is the SP expenditure: At 3rd Level, I can cast a Quickened-Empowered Scorching Ray! ... And that's it! I'm done for the day, no more extra spell slots, no more Metamagic. Kinda sucks from the Sorcerer perspective because Mr. Wizard gets his Arcane Tradition stuff constantly, the Bard can spread the Inspiration around more often than that, and the Fighter is getting her Action Surge back every Short Rest.

In fact, Short Rest may be a way to do it. I know it's the "Capstone Feature" (and not a very good one in my opinion), but allowing a Sorcerer to regain 1 SP on a Short Rest starting at ... I guess 5th Level, and then +1 every 5 (so 2 at 10, 3 at 15, and then 4 at 20) also helps keep the magic flowing. That's 1 extra use of Subtle or Empowered, 1 extra shot to really make your spells count.

Admittedly not a great fix, but I feel the key Sorcerer term is "Flexibility", and so allowing them to be more liberal in their spending of Sorcery Points would be a key factor. I'm not 100% sold on the idea of "At-Will" Metamagic, but even just dropping the cost for each option to 1 SP per use greatly opens up the playing field. Maybe even just a caveat of "No options can be combined". It's either Subtle or it's Empowered, choose one.

 

[Gadget]

1) Restricting metamagic to Sorcerer spells - This is mostly a fix to prevent three level dips for metamagic given:

I can get behind this as a way to limit multi-class cheese.

2) Remove the sorcery point cost for using metamagic - With the exception of twinning high-end spells, or using a high-end spell that does repeatable damage and quickening others, the most I can see happening is double Firebolt becoming popular, but that still does less damage than (Agonizing) Eldritch Blast with Hex.

I'm not to sure about this one. It seems like the option that would be most likely to have unintended consequences. I agree that metamagic, as the Sorcerer's main shtick, could use a bit of a boost though, which leads us to...

3) Doubling the number of metamagics given - this os just a personal thing. It allows Sorcerers to eventually get all the (present) metamagic options.

I think this might be an answer to some of the problems I have with the metamagic options as written. It takes a Sorcerer a long time to get a decent amount of options and flexibility from metamagic. Maybe, since it has been noted there are kind of two tiers to metamagic already, divide the options into two lists, A and B, then choose an option from both lists when selecting a new metamagic option. Possibly allow the Sorcerer to recover cha mod (min 1) sorcery points on a short rest as well?

 

[jaelis]

Three changes I'd like some help sounding out:
1) Restricting metamagic to Sorcerer spells - This is mostly a fix to prevent three level dips for metamagic given:

How do you define what is a sorc spell? Any spell on the sorc list, regardless of how you know it, or only spells that you learned as a sorc?

2) Remove the sorcery point cost for using metamagic - With the exception of twinning high-end spells, or using a high-end spell that does repeatable damage and quickening others, the most I can see happening is double Firebolt becoming popular, but that still does less damage than (Agonizing) Eldritch Blast with Hex.

Twin firebolt with hex: 2*(1d10+1d6) = 18 damage
EB with agonizing blast and hex: 1d10 + 1d6 + 5 = 14 damage

So I'm not sure I agree with your estimate. But of course, the more obvious thing is to quicken EB.

3) Doubling the number of metamagics given - this os just a personal thing. It allows Sorcerers to eventually get all the (present) metamagic options.

Probably fine.