twf + flurry -- all unarmed?

[Particle_Man]

The faq says a monk can use both flurry and twf.

Can you do a flurry + TWF *if you are a monk that is totally unarmed*, or do the 2ndary attack(s) gained from TWF, ITWF, GTWF require a weapon in the off-hand?

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Can you do a flurry + TWF *if you are a monk that is totally unarmed*

Of course.

 

[Legildur]

My reading of the most recent FAQ is that an unarmed strike can be used as part of TWF and FoB (p7), that is, no weapon required:

The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists. When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed strike hits.

For example, an 8th level monk with an 18 Strength using FoB would have an attack routine of +9/+9/+4 at 1d10+4 per attack.

But using FoB and TWF would result in an attack routine of +7/+7/+7/+2 and two of the +7 attacks and the +2 attack would be at 1d10+4, whilst one of the +7 attacks, depending on which one in the sequence was an 'off hand' attack, would be at 1d10+2 damage.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise)...

You know, I've never understood that line.

I'd have thought that when the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability 'suggests' that "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed", the rules did just "come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike"...

-Hyp.

 

[WD40]

I always understood FoB to be an alternative combat action to a full attack. You can either do one or the other.

Add to that the fact than while flurrying, a monk can attack with every part of her body, (A monk can make an unarmed FoB, while having somthing in both her hands, for example) kinda makes making an off-hand attack kinda pointless...

 

[Legildur]

Hypersmurph/WD40,

I understand EXACTLY where you are coming from, and why I included that particular line. Maybe this little anomaly should be referenced in the thread on 'FAQ is Errata'.

 

[Herzog]

I just read the FAQ, and can do nothing but wander whether to laugh or cry.

You can NOT combine FoB with an (extra) off-hand attack, since both require a full-round action, and you cannot combine two full round actions into one full-round action.

I actually had this discussion last weekend just before a session, and I came to the following conclusion:

The monk rules say that 'there is no such thing for a monk as an off-hand-attack' indicates that ALL attacks made by a monk are treated as primary attacks.

That is, a first level monk striking with both hands takes the -4 penalty for two-weapon fighting (with the second attack being made with a light weapon) on both attacks.
The trade-off with flurry of blows would be that this -4 only counts for his normal attack, and AoO are made at normal attack bonus.
FoB induces the -2 penalty on all attacks made during that round.

Herzog

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The faq says a monk can use both flurry and twf.

Can you do a flurry + TWF *if you are a monk that is totally unarmed*, or do the 2ndary attack(s) gained from TWF, ITWF, GTWF require a weapon in the off-hand?

By my reading of the FAQ, you'd need a weapon.

The FAQ seems to be saying that, whenever you use a weapon in a particular way, it is unavailable for further use that round.

In other words, if you use a weapon as part of your flurry, you may not use it as part of the TWF attacks.

This seems to make sense, otherwise, by extension, you'd have people dual-wielding one shortsword.

So, no, you could not do this.

Whether or not this particular FAQ entry is completely out to lunch is a separate discussion.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You can NOT combine FoB with an (extra) off-hand attack, since both require a full-round action, and you cannot combine two full round actions into one full-round action.

Actually, you're wrong here.

Both - FoB, TWF, and, additionally, WWA and Rapid Shot - are additional options you may enable when taking the Full Attack Action.

Note the difference in wording of these abilities and, say, Manyshot - which is its own standard action.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

By my reading of the FAQ, you'd need a weapon.

The FAQ seems to be saying that, whenever you use a weapon in a particular way, it is unavailable for further use that round.

In other words, if you use a weapon as part of your flurry, you may not use it as part of the TWF attacks.

This seems to make sense, otherwise, by extension, you'd have people dual-wielding one shortsword.

So, no, you could not do this.

How does that follow? A monk can use any part of his body to make unarmed strikes, so using his right knee to flurry doesn't prevent him from making an off-hand (TWF) strike with his left fist.

The analysis is simple:

(1) A monk can flurry unarmed.
(2) A monk can TWF unarmed.
(3) Flurries and TWF can be used together in a Full Attack.
(4) A monk has an unlimited number of "weapons" with which he can make his unarmed strikes.

Thus, a monk can combine TWF and flurry with his unarmed strikes.