twf + flurry -- all unarmed?

[Thia Halmades]

Eh, I may be missing something (that happens) but...

Originally Posted by SRD
A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

So right off I don't see how TFW (which requires a FAA) can stack with FoB (also requiring a FAA). And in regards to the off-hand argument, the question isn't whether the Monk can make an off-hand attack without a weapon, my interpretation is:

Originally Posted by SRD
There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

This tells me that the wording is extremely poor; a Monk DOES get Off-Hand Attacks, and those attacks are done with her full STR bonus.

So the answers are:

- Yes, they can TWF & apply their full STR bonus all the time
- No, they cannot stack FoB (FAA) with TWF (also an FAA).

 

[Infiniti2000]

Both - FoB, TWF, and, additionally, WWA and Rapid Shot - are additional options you may enable when taking the Full Attack Action.

WWA is significantly different. It actually stipulates that you "give up your regular attacks" and "you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities." So, I certainly wouldn't group it with the rest or characterize it as additional options.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I have always read this that FoB and TWF are both options as part of a Full Attack and can be used together.

I also read "no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk" to mean that no monk attack suffers the half STR penatly. Poorly worded rule to be sure.

IMHO its sillly to make a distinction that requires the character to hold a roll of coins in thier hands {a 'weapon'} in order to take advantage of the feats that character took.

Of course, thats what the FAQ is for, silly distinctions!

 

[Deset Gled]

\A monk can use any part of his body to make unarmed strikes, so using his right knee to flurry doesn't prevent him from making an off-hand (TWF) strike with his left fist.

...

(2) A monk can TWF unarmed.

Using a right knee vs. a left knee isn't what stops a monk from using TWF. The line "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" is. Neither knee is off-hand, and therefore cannot benefit from TWF. Since a monk cannot TWF unarmed, the rest of your analysis is incorrect.

From both a balance perspective and a logical perspective, I don't see allowing a monk to use TWF and FoB at the same time to be a problem. The monk generally has a low attack bonus, and the cumulative penalties will hurt a lot. But by a strict reading of the rules, its not allowed.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The monk generally has a low attack bonus, and the cumulative penalties will hurt a lot.

By 9th level there are no cumulative penalties, so the monk gets an additional attack above a normal two-weapon attacker for free. Also, I wouldn't qualify 3/4 as 'low'. Wizard is low. Monk therefore is not.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A monk can use any part of his body to make unarmed strikes, so using his right knee to flurry doesn't prevent him from making an off-hand (TWF) strike with his left fist.

Actually, it does, because "unarmed strike" is a single weapon. It doesn't matter what particular part of your body you're using, you're still attacking with your unarmed strike.

The flavor text of what particular part of your body you're attacking with does not affect the mechanics that all relevant body parts are subsumed in "unarmed strike."

And, if you're going with the FAQ ruling, then it stipulates that:

If the off-hand attack is a weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question).

...

An unarmed strike is a light weapon,

...

If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry (in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available for the flurry and vice versa.

So, if you're going to accept the FAQ's ruling, you're going to have to accept the FAQ's ruling.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

WWA is significantly different.

It is different in what it allows you to do; it is not different in the way it is "activated."

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So right off I don't see how TFW (which requires a FAA) can stack with FoB (also requiring a FAA).

Because they both require you to take the Full Attack action.

If, instead, they said, "A monk may use a Flurry of Blows as a full-round action," then this argument would work.

Specifically, see the interaction of Manyshot and Shot on the Run.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It is different in what it allows you to do; it is not different in the way it is "activated."

I thought you were implying that you can combine them all in some way. I really didn't think you meant that, but your comment was confusing, quite honestly.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, if you're going to accept the FAQ's ruling, you're going to have to accept the FAQ's ruling.

And remember, according to the FAQ:

There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

means "There is such a thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes, except for off-hand attacks, to which she applies half her full Strength bonus."

Which, of course, would be most succinctly written in the monk description as:



-Hyp.