Two-handed weapons -- nerfed, or am I missing something?

[Tony Vargas]

The "con on a miss" feat was for hammers.

I wonder if the guy that came up with that was thinking about the old Conan the Barbarian movie? In one fight scene, Thorgrim swings his oversize hammer at Conan, misses, but smashes his shoulder into him in the same motion. Lots of cool fight coreography in that flick, not so wuxia-influenced as modern fantasy movies.

Anyway, the big swings miss/little jabs and slashes hit thing is /very/ cinematic. Glad to see things like this one (whatever it is) and Reaping Strike modeling that in 4e.

 

[chaotix42]

The greatsword definitely lags in pure damage done. And judging by the outcry this has provoked, it's not D&D unless 2H swords are the be-all and end-all of weapons. What may make up for the lesser damage is all-or-nothing attacks, which is to say, all of your important attacks: encounter & (non-reliable) daily powers. Average damage calculations break down there because you only get one chance to use that attack per fight, or per day, and if you miss, you can't try again. The +1 to hit for swords is potentially a large benefit there, when the difference is doing slightly lesser damage once or not doing damage at all.

Or in other words, that base 2d6 weapon damage doesn't do you much good if you miss.

Good point, I think. How important a single +1 is remains to be seen, but I've seen my fair share of moments where an extra +1 would have made a miss into a hit.

 

[Spatula]

I was only a GS user because I like reliability over HUGE CRITZ. Now, don't get me wrong, I love HUGE CRITZ, but what I love more is repeatedly beating the slop out of something with a giant 2-handed weapon. Any 2-handed weapon, really. It's not that greatswords are bad; it's that all 2-handed weapons are "meh".

Other 2H weapons do more damage than greatswords, so I'm not sure how you prove your "all 2H weapons are meh" point by comparing longsword & greatsword damage.

Now we've got 1-12 vs. 1-14 when factoring 18 strength. And if you put your longsword in 2 hands, that's 2-13 vs. the greatsword's 1-14. That's awful.

The game isn't made up of only basic attacks anymore (and your numbers are wrong, anyway). A 2[w] power with an 18 str (ignoring feats) is 2d8+5 (7-21) for the longsword in two hands and 2d10+4 (6-24) for the greatsword. A 3[w] power is 8-29 vs 7-34. And so on.

Now compare the 2H longsword to the maul, since you claim to not care about using a greatsword specifically and just want to do lots of damage.
1[w]: 6-13 vs 6-16
2[w]: 7-21 vs 8-28
3[w]: 8-29 vs 10-40

Do you really not see the difference between 8-29 and 10-40? You can get a 3[w] attack at first level.

In 3.x I was always thinking "Do I want to deal huge damage, or do I want to be a walking tank?"

Since sword-n-boards don't deal much damage, generally can't protect their teammates, and that high AC is worthless past the "sweet spot", and since you can get always-on concealment effects from worn items which are always worthwhile, the answer was "huge damage."

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Other 2H weapons do more damage than greatswords, so I'm not sure how you prove your "all 2H weapons are meh" point by comparing longsword & greatsword damage.

If +3 to hit and 1d10 damage is meh, then +2 to hit and 2d6 damage is probably meh as well. I compared longsword and greatsword because they have the same hit bonus, and also the best hit bonus. Less hit bonus = less hitting = less damage. The maul and greataxe probably work out to be the same damage in the long run, although the greataxe gets that awesome fun extra crit damage.

Do you really not see the difference between 8-29 and 10-40? You can get a 3[w] attack at first level.

The problem isn't that I can't see the difference; it's that I only see the difference once per day. Then you're back to "meh". And honestly, no, there's really not much difference between 8-29 and 10-40 when you can only do it once per day. That's what, a 5-point difference on average damage?

I guess when you hit level 29 and you get that 7[W] attack and you have feats out the crapper it might make a difference then.

Still at this point I think I'd rather have the +2 AC all day.

Since sword-n-boards don't deal much damage, generally can't protect their teammates, and that high AC is worthless past the "sweet spot", and since you can get always-on concealment effects from worn items which are always worthwhile, the answer was "huge damage."

I'll give you that, although in my defense, my group never made it past the sweet spot. Ever. Not once (I'm not bitter, really ). So for us, it was always a choice. Well, for me, I guess, since I was usually the only person that played non-cleric melee warriors.

 

[Destil]

Yep. It's a paragon tier feat... and it requires Dex 15, which will make it difficult for many defenders.

Put a 12 into Dex for init and take it at level 20. Or playing a bladed-based defender who could easily have Dex a bit above con to max out the blade powers (and eventually pick this up).

 

[Zsig]

Just a reminder for some people here talking about Shield Specialization.

Shield Specialization as well as Armor Specialization provides a +1 feat bonus to AC, which means, they don't stack.

So saying it's a +3 AC difference from Sword+Board to 2-handed is not correct. The difference will remain at +2.

That being said, for a Fighter, I'd probably take Armor Specialization (Scale) anyday over Shield Specialization, but that's just me. (no penalty to speed vs. +1 to Reflex)

Anyway, on topic, I don't think that there's anything wrong with 2-handed weapons, except for the Greatsword which is underpowered (just a wee bit). I don't know what could be done to make it balanced though.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

The main factor people miss is party dynamic. It all depends on the other members of your party. If you've got a really talented healer and/or someone else to do the job of the tank (such as a paladin) in the party, then the party can really do with a 2H damage machine. Killing the monster a round early can save everyone's lives.

However, if you lack those, you need a high-defense damage sponge.

Fitz

 

[Spatula]

If +3 to hit and 1d10 damage is meh, then +2 to hit and 2d6 damage is probably meh as well. I compared longsword and greatsword because they have the same hit bonus, and also the best hit bonus. Less hit bonus = less hitting = less damage. The maul and greataxe probably work out to be the same damage in the long run, although the greataxe gets that awesome fun extra crit damage.

Well, in average damage calculations, the bonus to hit doesn't make up for the greatsword's lesser damage - the d12 & 2d6 weapons are still much better ("much" meaning about 1/2 a point of average dmg). Like I was speculating earlier in the thread, the bonus to hit may make a difference with one-off attacks, but if you just want to deal damage, the d12 & 2d6 weapons are where it's at.

And honestly, no, there's really not much difference between 8-29 and 10-40 when you can only do it once per day. That's what, a 5-point difference on average damage?

I guess when you hit level 29 and you get that 7[W] attack and you have feats out the crapper it might make a difference then.

Take a look at the fighter powers. 3[w] is available at level 1 once/day, right. But the encounter attacks start off at 2[w] (ignoring the "tank" options, since a 2H fighter wouldn't take them) and quickly go up from there. The first 3[w] encounter power is at level 7 - by that time you also have two daily powers, and frankly, even the 2[w] powers are noticably better with a high-damage weapon.

I'll give you that, although in my defense, my group never made it past the sweet spot. Ever. Not once (I'm not bitter, really ). So for us, it was always a choice. Well, for me, I guess, since I was usually the only person that played non-cleric melee warriors.

Well, at least the choice has some meaning now, at all levels (in theory).

 

[NoFace]

One-handed + a shield isn't as good as people think. Shield doesn't provide as big of a boon since unlike 3E you can't get some crazy number to AC from your magic shield anymore. So you really are just getting the +1~3 points as far as bonus to AC and Ref go.

Also, more importantly, that shield now shares the same slot as braces. You can still have a shield and pair of brace equipped but only one of them will function, meaning that two-handed weapon really isn't at that much disadvantage. I really think it will all balance out in the long run.