Two-handed weapons -- nerfed, or am I missing something?

[AllisterH]

It takes one feat for the 1h+Shield user to get the same Def than the greatsword user. There is no single feat a Greatsword user can take to get the same defence as the 1h+shield user.

?

Er, if you're going with THF, you're obviously not interested in DEF. For a fighter for example, Opportunity attacks look like they'll be more common than before based on reports as everything is more mobile.

If so, how does one factor in the damage from the fighter that is like quicksand and generates opportunity attacks pretty much every time he fights?

 

[Cadfan]

Cool which power is that? So far I only heard about a power that let's you add your Con bonus to damage if you hit with an attack provoked through a violated fighter challenge. Con bonus on a miss? Does this work with every weapon and every power?

I don't have the books, I'm just going with something someone who did have the books (or the pdfs...) said was there. But there's a paragon feat that lets you do dex on a miss with a blade, so its probably there.

The "con on a miss" feat was for hammers. The fun is pairing the biggest, most damaging, and also most inaccurate two handed weapon you can find, with the hardest hitting, most inaccurate powers you can find, while still doing damage when you miss. Then using Reaping Strike for your generic attacks, so that a miss on a generic attack still inflicts Str + Con damage. At level 11, it wouldn't be too hard to deal 8 damage on a miss.

You could put together the same build with a one handed weapon, but you'd lose the full benefit of Reaping Strike, and since your goal is to pile together attacks with the biggest X in X[W] you can find (rather than go for weaker attacks with better secondary effects), you want the biggest [W] you can get to optimize them.

I'll agree with you that bastard sword + shield looks to be king in this edition, and that the greatsword looks a little lackluster. But it doesn't look THAT bad. There was going to be some degree of nerfing, if only because the greatsword was the best melee weapon in 3e.

 

[Mirtek]

Er, if you're going with THF, you're obviously not interested in DEF.

As long as you get a good enough damage boost as compensation.

For a fighter for example, Opportunity attacks look like they'll be more common than before based on reports as everything is more mobile.

If so, how does one factor in the damage from the fighter that is like quicksand and generates opportunity attacks pretty much every time he fights?

At the moment I have trouble with seeing why there should be more OAs then in 3.x.

As has been said in some other thread, the attacks a fighter get's because an enemy violated the terms of his combat challenge are not OAs but simply attacks.

So that would normal movement as the source for OA. While there is less incentive to stand still (because you no longer lose full attacks) I still don't see why there is any incentive to move around just because you can (especially if you know you will provoke an OA if you do).

So if I am a NPC and start my turn next to a fighter why should I move? Just make the best of it and hit the fighter. Or at least shift (so that the fighter only get's a normal attack and not an OA) and then move after you shifted out of his threat range

I don't have the books, I'm just going with something someone who did have the books (or the pdfs...) said was there. But there's a paragon feat that lets you do dex on a miss with a blade, so its probably there.

The "con on a miss" feat was for hammers. The fun is pairing the biggest, most damaging, and also most inaccurate two handed weapon you can find, with the hardest hitting, most inaccurate powers you can find, while still doing damage when you miss. Then using Reaping Strike for your generic attacks, so that a miss on a generic attack still inflicts Str + Con damage. At level 11, it wouldn't be too hard to deal 8 damage on a miss.

You could put together the same build with a one handed weapon, but you'd lose the full benefit of Reaping Strike, and since your goal is to pile together attacks with the biggest X in X[W] you can find (rather than go for weaker attacks with better secondary effects), you want the biggest [W] you can get to optimize them.

I'll agree with you that bastard sword + shield looks to be king in this edition, and that the greatsword looks a little lackluster. But it doesn't look THAT bad. There was going to be some degree of nerfing, if only because the greatsword was the best melee weapon in 3e.

Dex damage on a miss sounds nice. I am still a little bit disappointed that swords use Str and Dex because I think dex is one of the less usefell stats for a fighter with heavy armor. However I definately want to use a 2h sword, no mater how bad it's rulewise. I am just disappointed because it seems so much worse than either 1h sword + shield or 2h hammer/axe. Maybe once I can look through the books I find something that makes it more worthwhile

 

[MindWanderer]

Cool which power is that? So far I only heard about a power that let's you add your Con bonus to damage if you hit with an attack provoked through a violated fighter challenge. Con bonus on a miss? Does this work with every weapon and every power?

It's the Hammer Rhythm paragon feat. Str 15, Con 17, if you miss with a hammer or mace and wouldn't ordinarily deal damage on a miss, you deal your Con mod in damage. It doesn't stack with Reaping Strike.

 

[Spatula]

If all your focused on is doing DAMAGE, then Heavy Flail is the best.

Not being harsh, but I'm somewhat skeptical of the claims that Greatsword is the worst as I haven't seen a good mathematical argument about it (involving to-hit versus monsters etc. For example, it looks like at pretty much every level, a fighter isn't actually going to auto-hit the monster which means that the +3 from the greatsword is huge).

I'm still crunching the numbers and I'm shall we say not convinced that there is a clear cut winner this time around on the weapons table front. The weapon table is seriously cut down from previous editions (how many polearms did the 2E PHB have again )but it seems like every weapon actually has a feature/drawback.

The greataxe seems to be the winner on damage, rather than the heavy flail or maul, thanks to its inherent high-crit property. But it's very marginal - the 2d6 weapons are only a small fraction of a point of average damage behind.

The greatsword definitely lags in pure damage done. And judging by the outcry this has provoked, it's not D&D unless 2H swords are the be-all and end-all of weapons. What may make up for the lesser damage is all-or-nothing attacks, which is to say, all of your important attacks: encounter & (non-reliable) daily powers. Average damage calculations break down there because you only get one chance to use that attack per fight, or per day, and if you miss, you can't try again. The +1 to hit for swords is potentially a large benefit there, when the difference is doing slightly lesser damage once or not doing damage at all.

Or in other words, that base 2d6 weapon damage doesn't do you much good if you miss.

And looking over the system, one thing that struck me is that it's a lot harder to get hit bonuses than damage bonuses. There are no feats that give you a flat bonus to hit. The "weapon master" paragon path (fighter/kensai) gives you only +1 to hit but +4 damage. Every melee fighter can get +1-3 to damage from one feat, and another +1 if you forgo a shield and 2H weapon (TWFing). Hit bonuses seem to be valued higher than pure damage; whether this turns out to be justified remains to be seen, but it looks reasonable to me.

 

[Cadfan]

It's the Hammer Rhythm paragon feat. Str 15, Con 17, if you miss with a hammer or mace and wouldn't ordinarily deal damage on a miss, you deal your Con mod in damage. It doesn't stack with Reaping Strike.

Oh well. So much for that plan.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?

Fighter:
Mamma Mia, Mamma Mia, I'm viable once more!

Full Martial Chorus:
Baalzebub's* got some exploits set aside for meeeee, For MEEE!! For MEEEEEE!!!

(Guitar solo)

Fighter:
So you think you can Charm me and then spit in my eye?!
So you think you can Teleport and leave me to diieee??!
Oh baby!
you cant do that again baby!
Im just gotta get mine! I just gotta get my books in here!

(coda)

Chorus:
Any way the exploit goes....


* Baalzebub in this case, is of course, Mike Mearls

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Comparing base weapon numbers is really only a small part of the whole picture. Feats and Powers are what will distinguish the different weapon uses - even moreso when the Martial Powers book comes out.

In other words, they'll fix it with a splatbook.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

And judging by the outcry this has provoked, it's not D&D unless 2H swords are the be-all and end-all of weapons.

I was only a GS user because I like reliability over HUGE CRITZ. Now, don't get me wrong, I love HUGE CRITZ, but what I love more is repeatedly beating the slop out of something with a giant 2-handed weapon. Any 2-handed weapon, really. It's not that greatswords are bad; it's that all 2-handed weapons are "meh".

In 2e a longsword was 1d8 and a two-handed sword was 1d10...but when fighting large creatures (IE, everything after level 5) it was 1d12 and 3d6, respectively. 1-12 vs. 3-18, nice.

In 3e, a longsword was 1d8 and a greatsword was 2d6. You also get x1.5 on the str mod. 1-12 vs. 2-18 when factoring in 18 strength.

Now we've got 1-12 vs. 1-14 when factoring 18 strength. And if you put your longsword in 2 hands, that's 2-13 vs. the greatsword's 1-14. That's awful.

Everyone talking about the +3 with the greatsword...you also get that with a longsword.

In 3.x I was always thinking "Do I want to deal huge damage, or do I want to be a walking tank?"

Now I'm thinking "Where are the rest of the 2h weapon rules?" because as of right now I can't see a lot that's going to get me to give up that 2 AC + bonuses.

 

[frankthedm]

The greatsword got a nerfing. Oh well.

Unless my players object, I'll allow a standard action to make a with reach when using the Greatsword.