D&D (2024) Two Spells, One Turn Confusion Never Dies

[Paul Farquhar]

You might want to take another look at this (or correct me). "Prepared" now means "known," so there's no longer such thing as having one fireball prepared. If you have a spell prepared and the right spell slot(s), you can cast it.

I'm not talking about this rule change, I'm talking about the rule change after 3rd edition.

 

[Oofta]

That never was a problem for me--outdoors it was usually straightforward to get out of range of potential counterspellers, and indoors it was usually straightforward to break line of sight to the counterspellers by going around a corner. As long as you could get it down to only one PC counterspeller left in range/LOS, the party couldn't dogpile counterspells.

And if the party was specifically trying to limit an NPC spellcaster's ability to manuever in order to be able to counterspell them, great! At that point a fight already had multiple levels of tactics and coordination going on, and so if the party did succeed at shutting down an enemy caster, I considered it well-earned.

And to make sure the same anti-spellcasting tactics don't become stale, there are plenty of other ways to complicate the counterspellijg situation with mook spellcasters making good use of (e.g.) Fog Cloud, Invisibility, Blindness/Deafness, and Pyrotechnics to deny PC counterspellers sight of the primary caster while still leaving some targets visible. And non-spellcasting mooks can help by trying to eat up the PCs' reactions or to force them out of counterspelling position.

Most spells require line of effect and being able to see the target. So an enemy spellcaster has to be able to see where they're casting which, in most cases means they are still visible to the PCs. There are of course counters like blindness, but that requires that the enemy spellcaster get a spell off in the first place.

 

[abirdcall]

In 2024, getting to cast two fireballs on the same turn isn't TOO hard. You just need to be a thief with a necklace of fireballs. Fast Hands lets you use the Magic action as a bonus action, so you use that bonus action to chuck a bead from the necklace...and then do it again with your action.

Pew pew, boom boom.

The necklace of fireballs works around most limitations since you don't actually cast a spell from it. It just produces an effect that is like a spell. So it doesn't need to respect spellcasting limitations.

FWIW, you could also be a sorcerer who uses Quicken Spell to cast Fireball and then also use a fireball from a necklace of fireballs - potentially more effective, since you can upscale your fireball, if you want. But a little less funny, because you don't expect your rogue to become your fireball artillery because of a serendipitous rules interaction.

Pretty niche, I guess, and consumes a lot of a rare magic item, but probably worth the 4k gp when you get the chance if you're a thief or a sorc...

Yeah.

There are a lot of things that break in the game if the players get to choose magic items.

Thief Rogue with a Necklace of Fireballs is really cool if it is an unexpected find. Less cool if it is planned.

The 19 stat items are the worst culprit of this. Imagine having 10 in your main stat and then just buying or crafting the item once you have enough gold at 3rd level.

 

[Xetheral]

Most spells require line of effect and being able to see the target. So an enemy spellcaster has to be able to see where they're casting which, in most cases means they are still visible to the PCs. There are of course counters like blindness, but that requires that the enemy spellcaster get a spell off in the first place.

That's why I suggested the enemy spellcaster get out of range or LoS of only some of the PCs. And why I suggested that mook spellcasters cast the enabling spells like blindness.

If only one PC with counterspell is in range of (or has LoS to) the NPC spellcaster, then so long as the NPC themselves knows counterspell they can successfully cast whatever they want. If the NPC spellcaster doesn't know counterspell, then yes, they have to get out of range/LoS of all the counterspelling PCs, which may require them to stick to buffs, summoning, and AoE spells if there are no other PCs left in range/LoS, but they can still cast.

And if the mooks are casting the enabling spells, then the PCs don't have enough Reactions to shut down both the mooks and the main NPC caster. Each mook trying to shut down counterspells ties up the reaction of at least one PC counterspeller.

 

[Oofta]

....

The 19 stat items are the worst culprit of this. Imagine having 10 in your main stat and then just buying or crafting the item once you have enough gold at 3rd level.

My house rule is that they add up to a certain amount, they don't replace. You only need attunement if you can go above 20. So gauntlets of ogre power add +2 up to 20 with no attunement, a girdle of hill giant strength goes up to 22 but needs atonement.

But I don't want a dex based PC to just get a high strength with an item.it kind if cheapens the investment other PCs put in to have a strength based character.

 

[abirdcall]

My house rule is that they add up to a certain amount, they don't replace. You only need attunement if you can go above 20. So gauntlets of ogre power add +2 up to 20 with no attunement, a girdle of hill giant strength goes up to 22 but needs atonement.

But I don't want a dex based PC to just get a high strength with an item.it kind if cheapens the investment other PCs put in to have a strength based character.

I think the idea is to end up having stats that you didn't plan for.

Sure you end up with a super high intelligence that matches the Wizard but you're not actually going to use it as well.

There is an ogre with the headband in BG3 that is quite fun.

Where it breaks is being able to choose it and create a character with it in mind. I'm happy with magic items making big changes to characters as long as they aren't part of the character design process.

I think it is fun to end up with character aspects that I didn't plan for and came about due to the game play.

 

[Oofta]

I think the idea is to end up having stats that you didn't plan for.

Sure you end up with a super high intelligence that matches the Wizard but you're not actually going to use it as well.

There is an ogre with the headband in BG3 that is quite fun.

Where it breaks is being able to choose it and create a character with it in mind. I'm happy with magic items making big changes to characters as long as they aren't part of the character design process.

I think it is fun to end up with character aspects that I didn't plan for and came about due to the game play.

In a lot of campaigns you can buy, at the very least, most uncommon items. So the idea that someone that dumped strength effectively never had to make difficult build decisions for a high strength has always bothered me. Well, that and a toddler picking up daddy's belt and suddenly being able to bench press a horse has always seemed silly to me.

 

[MarkB]

I think it is a problem because it's such a large gain to caster, specifically Sorcerer power over all other classes. You can basically end some encounters round one.

So, do you also disallow a party having two characters capable of casting fireball in it? Because that's still going to end the same encounter in round 1, for the same amount of expended slots and no sorcery points.

In any case, Quicken has its own requirements, separate and additional to the "only 1 spell slot per turn" general rule - you cannot use your action to case a levelled spell (not just one that expends a slot) on the same turn that you quicken a spell (even a cantrip). So you can't cast fireball from a wand or staff the same turn, though you could throw a bead from a necklace of fireballs, or do some readied-action shenanigans.

 

[abirdcall]

In a lot of campaigns you can buy, at the very least, most uncommon items. So the idea that someone that dumped strength effectively never had to make difficult build decisions for a high strength has always bothered me. Well, that and a toddler picking up daddy's belt and suddenly being able to bench press a horse has always seemed silly to me.

The default expectation of 2014 was that you could not purchase magic items like that.

You are of course allowed to play it however you want, but when you do so stuff like this is left open.

Prices were an after thought in 2014, and since that is the system they didn't do much to change that in 2024 when they added in crafting. It still doesn't work for magic item shops.

I personally loved the change because I like magic items to be special. I like the idea of crafting but will be requiring special items not just gold.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

So, do you also disallow a party having two characters capable of casting fireball in it? Because that's still going to end the same encounter in round 1, for the same amount of expended slots and no sorcery points.

Sorry, but that's simply not the same. Two characters acting on separate initiative rolls, both using their single main Action to cast Fireball is just not even arguably the same as one character casting two Fireballs on the same initiative. The latter is vastly easier to cause a real problem with. Hell, you could have two characters double-Fireball'ing, if you allow one, and then that's going to be real funny.

In any case, Quicken has its own requirements, separate and additional to the "only 1 spell slot per turn" general rule - you cannot use your action to case a levelled spell (not just one that expends a slot) on the same turn that you quicken a spell (even a cantrip). So you can't cast fireball from a wand or staff the same turn, though you could throw a bead from a necklace of fireballs, or do some readied-action shenanigans.

Ah interesting - this is a 2024-specific change I see.

The old Quicken was:

When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting.

But the 2024 Quicken is:

When you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can spend 2 Sorcery Points to change the casting time to a Bonus Action for this casting. You can’t modify a spell in this way if you’ve already cast a level 1+ spell on the current turn, nor can you cast a level 1+ spell on this turn after modifying a spell in this way.