D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Doug McCrae]

Regarding the "Why not aboleths, mind flayers, etc?" question:

The problem is monsters that are similar to a racist's idea of a non-white person (particularly formerly colonised and enslaved peoples). What that idea boils down to is: like a white person but morally and mentally inferior. So we are concerned with monsters that are like humans (ie humanoid, human-like biology, bear young, social, need to eat and drink, mortal, etc), but of evil alignment, less-than-human intelligence or wisdom, and a less-than-PC-race level of technology and magic. Much more detail can be added but that's the essence of it, imo.

That's why drow are less of a concern to me, because they are smart, cultured, urbanised, and have advanced magic. They're still a concern, because dark skin is connected with evil, so they do fulfil two parts of the criteria.

 

[Doug McCrae]

It could be that when HP Lovecraft was writing about the terrible alien horror of amorphous, tentacled things with lots of eyes, it was an unconscious metaphor for his fear of non-white people. I'll let him get away with that one. He concealed the metaphor sufficiently well.

 

[Voadam]

Why are the classic drow an elven race and not a human race?

I'd say it goes to their origin back in G3.

After fighting evil norse D&D frost giants, the party levels up and fights evil D&D norse fire giants. Behind the scenes at the evil norse D&D fire giants are . . . evil black-skinned elves. It seems another D&Dification of norse monsters, the not as well defined dokkalfar or svartalfar who are dark elves/black elves. The PH elves are all light skinned so they follow Tolkien and fit losalfar light elves.

I think they are black-skinned evil elves to fit Gygax's loosely norse themed 20 page module and then he ran with it in D1-3 after having developed them.

Their specific evil of slavery, debauchery, and demon worship shows up more in D1-3 and that seems more Melnibonean as Gygax develops them after their initial appearance.

 

[Aldarc]

I can't speak for anyone else, but there were several pages of arguments about what a person is. In my opinion either it's wrong for an intelligent self aware creature to be always evil or it's not.

As for "do I really have a problem", well no. I can see that there are some specific issues with depiction of orcs. I just don't have a problem with evil monsters, even the intelligent self aware ones. It's not reality, it's not attempting to be reality. It's a game.

So in other words, your goal in your argumentation is to create a false dilemma in which you frame the argument of your opponents in an all or nothing sort of position - dare they be hypocrites - in the hopes of maintaining monsters as written? Does that sum this up succinctly?

 

[Dire Bare]

I'd say it goes to their origin back in G3.

After fighting evil norse D&D frost giants, the party levels up and fights evil D&D norse fire giants. Behind the scenes at the evil norse D&D fire giants are . . . evil black-skinned elves. It seems another D&Dification of norse monsters, the not as well defined dokkalfar or svartalfar who are dark elves/black elves. The PH elves are all light skinned so they follow Tolkien and fit losalfar light elves.

I think they are black-skinned evil elves to fit Gygax's loosely norse themed 20 page module and then he ran with it in D1-3 after having developed them.

Their specific evil of slavery, debauchery, and demon worship shows up more in D1-3 and that seems more Melnibonean as Gygax develops them after their initial appearance.

Yes, but not really the point.

Why elves at all? Obviously, D&D elves (and drow) are inspired by myths and literature . . . but why use them? Why not make the concepts examples of human cultures, it wouldn't play all that different. In fact, it's been done before.

Now, I'm not truly advocating for the removal of fantasy creatures and races from D&D. Playing an elf, even if you aren't really doing much more than playing a human with pointy ears who lives a long time, is an opportunity to step into the classic stories and myths and be somone other than yourself for a while, someone magical . . . .

And I don't feel that we need to craft elven societies that are truly alien and separate from human cultures . . . in fact I'm not sure that's really possible.

The reason to have elves, drow, dwarves, and orcs in our games is to add that feeling of magic of being something different from your normal day-to-day existence, and to live out myths and stories from that magical perspective. We just have to be careful, as those pesky racist tropes are often subtly hidden in our favorite myths and stories and translated into our games.

The drow specifically are LOOSELY based on the svartalfar of Norse legend. But the dark elves of myth weren't necessarily dark-skinned, they were dark of heart rather. And of course the developed culture of Lolthite spider-worshippers is a unique creation, not really pulling directly from existing myth or story (to my knowledge). So why do our underground dwelling, dark-skinned, spider-worshippers have to be elves rather than humans with the same story? My answer is, "Why not?" Why invent totally new drow cultures like the Umbragen, Vulkoor, and Sulatar that are pretty divorced from myth and literature? Again, "Why not?"

I think a race of red-haired fire-worshippers who live in a volcano sounds pretty cool whether they are described as elves, dwarves, or humans. But by making them drow, they gain the "edginess" of this fey race with a sinister reputation. We get to play a magical elf, we get to play something interesting, unique, and new, and we get to play the "edgy" character that makes the townsfolk jumpy. That's fun. And, as a bonus, we give the drow elf race a greater degree of cultural variety, which is a good thing as we try to move away from racist and deterministic tropes.

 

[Aldarc]

Why elves at all? Obviously, D&D elves (and drow) are inspired by myths and literature . . . but why use them? Why not make the concepts examples of human cultures, it wouldn't play all that different. In fact, it's been done before.

The assumed setting of Malhavoc Press's Arcana Evolved - The Diamond Throne - actually did have humans that were drow-like: the Vallorians, evil subterranean race of subhumans who had connections to aberrations, chaos, and such, but they were pale skinned.

 

[Dire Bare]

Here's another really good article on the situation, I don't think it's been linked in this thread yet, but if I missed it, apologies.

One of the folks interviewed in the article makes the very good point that D&D fans who are complaining that these changes are political and are upset they may be losing their one-dimensional disposable enemies are engaging in gatekeeping, which is something we have way too much of in our community.

 

[Hussar]

Why bother even asking? There are certain posters, such as myself, that accept that while all orcs are evil is a vast over-simplification of the real world, that's okay. D&D is chock full of vast over-simplifications. It's not the real world and neither are orcs. If there's specific wording or imagery that is problematic, fix it but taking away the concept of evil creatures (whether humanoid or not) would be adding needless complexity.
/snip

So, thousands of pages in, you are still missing the point?

The issue was never that orcs are evil. Or that any particular race is evil. That's never actually been the problem. Races in D&D can be evil. No one wants to take away the concept of evil creatures.

It's kinda funny. You recognize the issue "specific wording or imagery that is problematic" but, for some bizarre reason then take that a hundred steps further to "taking away the concept of evil creatures".

 

[Hussar]

I'd say it goes to their origin back in G3.

After fighting evil norse D&D frost giants, the party levels up and fights evil D&D norse fire giants. Behind the scenes at the evil norse D&D fire giants are . . . evil black-skinned elves. It seems another D&Dification of norse monsters, the not as well defined dokkalfar or svartalfar who are dark elves/black elves. The PH elves are all light skinned so they follow Tolkien and fit losalfar light elves.

I think they are black-skinned evil elves to fit Gygax's loosely norse themed 20 page module and then he ran with it in D1-3 after having developed them.

Their specific evil of slavery, debauchery, and demon worship shows up more in D1-3 and that seems more Melnibonean as Gygax develops them after their initial appearance.

I was unaware that Melniboneans were depicted as man hating dominatrixes in fetish costumes who worshipped a black widow spider.

Same generally goes for the Norse inspirations.

Drow are problematic for so many more reasons than skin color.

 

[Mercurius]

Here's another really good article on the situation, I don't think it's been linked in this thread yet, but if I missed it, apologies.

One of the folks interviewed in the article makes the very good point that D&D fans who are complaining that these changes are political and are upset they may be losing their one-dimensional disposable enemies are engaging in gatekeeping, which is something we have way too much of in our community.

I just read through it and it is a terribly one-sided article, not providing any nuances of those questioning the changes.

Furthermore, it is subtly--but crucially--inaccurate with regards to Tolkien, quoting the infamous "Mongol-types" using the plural letters, and saying nothing about how Tolkien repeatedly said that they weren't based on any real-world people.