D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Aldarc]

A big part of the discussion requires understanding how the framing of the fiction affects the message. The video game Of Orcs and Men, place orcs in the role of the colonized who are fighting back against the colonizers, an alliance of elves, dwarves, and humans. This is punching up, as per @Campbell. But if you were playing humans in this game who were conquering and enslaving savage orcs, then that’s punching down.

It’s like in This is Spinal Tap. The band gets in trouble because of their album cover for Smell the Glove. A rival musician reversed the gender dynamics on his album and there was far less outcry.

 

[S'mon]

Ylaruam was the Persian/Saudi allegory, with the kith and kin factions being the fantasy equivalent.

It obviously was an Arabian not a Persian based setting. It did have Preceptor (Sunni) and Kin (Shia) factions, with the Preceptors presented more favourably. Which seemed to have something to do with US 1980-present Geostrategy in my estimation.

I ran a Classic D&D Mystara campaign a few years ago, after the conquest of Alasiya (I had moved the Master of the Desert Nomads campaign to Alasiya with the Master claiming descent from the Prophet, so supported by the Kin faction) my son's Wizard PC was appointed Sultan by the victors; he wowed the wise men of the Preceptors so much in theological debate that they came to regard him as a Learned & Wise Man, and his rule was well secured against Kin assassination attempts. My son was about 9 years old at the time, and basically his theological debate strategy was to have his PC repeat back to the Preceptors everything they had just said to him, as if it were his own words... brilliant tactic.

 

[S'mon]

Hule was on the opposite end of the map and unrelated to Ylaruam, and was a pure fantasy nation, being a clerical police state that uses divination to find non-believers.

Hule was very obviously based on 1980s US ideas of Revolutionary Iran, including being a clerical police state led by the Master, who was depicted as looking exactly like Ayatollah Khomeini.

 

[S'mon]

Well, 5e seems to disagree. Celestials can fall, Zariel can be redeemed from devil to angel, there's a chaotic good devil in Descent into Avernus, and Acq. Inc. has a "good" lich.
I think most fiends should be evil most of the time. I think most celestials should be good most of the time. Aberrations are alien and can be evil all the time. Humanoids and other creatures aren't so clear cut.

I think D&D would really benefit from getting rid of the Good & Evil alignments. Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic is fine. I think slapping the Good & Evil label on creatures is a major cause of problems.

 

[Hussar]

Honestly, as long as there is a dialogue going on, and the parts are being honestly examined, that goes a LONG way forward. And, in my personal opinion, radical changes aren't even all that necessary. We don't have to completely rewrite orcs or drow. Just give them the Klingon treatment and you're going to be 99% of the way there.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

A big part of the discussion requires understanding how the framing of the fiction affects the message. The video game Of Orcs and Men, place orcs in the role of the colonized who are fighting back against the colonizers, an alliance of elves, dwarves, and humans. This is punching up, as per @Campbell. But if you were playing humans in this game who were conquering and enslaving savage orcs, then that’s punching down.

It’s like in This is Spinal Tap. The band gets in trouble because of their album cover for Smell the Glove. A rival musician reversed the gender dynamics on his album and there was far less outcry.

So what about a land totally dominated by Orcs who treat the other races as slaves and keep them subjugated, while the PCs fight against their tyranny?

Fighting against Tyrannical Empires is a thing. Does it matter who the Tyrants are? Or does it only matter that you are fighting against Tyranny? Can you play a party of Orcs from the dominant Orc Empire that are invading other lands?

Is it the theme of colonialism that is more offensive or the racial parallels? Or both?

I'm genuinely curious (especially as a white guy who needs to be more sensitive).

 

[Hussar]

That was pretty bad, but what does an unofficial write-up have to do with this discussion? We're talking about the official write-up.

Baby steps.

Where do you think the ideas for that unofficial write up came from?

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

We don't really have to be terribly concerned about other races and whatnot because, well, no one is complaining about them. If we change orcs and people are happy, then job done. If we change orcs and then people move on to goblins, well, we can deal with that then. I don't see why we need to carve out one answer to rule them all forevermore right now. Let's just deal with what's the problem right now.

My question is this: Do you think that orcs are just going to get replaced by another race, like goblins or demons or undead or gnolls? If so, doesn't it mean the issue still stands? Or do you think it is possible for some kind of compromise?

 

[Aldarc]

So what about a land totally dominated by Orcs who treat the other races as slaves and keep them subjugated, while the PCs fight against their tyranny?

Fighting against Tyrannical Empires is a thing. Does it matter who the Tyrants are? Or does it only matter that you are fighting against Tyranny? Can you play a party of Orcs from the dominant Orc Empire that are invading other lands?

Is it the theme of colonialism that is more offensive or the racial parallels? Or both?

I'm genuinely curious (especially as a white guy that needs to be more sensitive).

It seems like the standard trope for a lot of modern media would be to introduce factions of orcs who also oppose the Empire and its practices. Maybe also with that whole “things were not always so...” twist.

 

[Xenonnonex]

Think good and evil and neutral and law and chaos are still necessary. But make them subjective. And a choice for humanoids. Choice is key. Free will do they have.
While also have objective alignments.
Makes for more interesting games.