D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Chaosmancer]

Finally catching up to a point where I can start quoting and commenting

So a question--or challenge--for you. How would you re-work orcs to allow for the "brutal-savage-evil" type? Would you make them a sub-race? ("Gruumsh orcs"). And if so, how to portray their nature without the same language that you feel is racist-adjacent? Or if not a sub-race, but just "some orcs are like that," how would you do it? Would you just negate the issue entirely and generalize them to the point that no traits are assigned, essentially making them differently shaped humans that can be whatever the DM wants them to be? And would you apply it across the board, so that all humanoids are essentially just like humans in terms of the range of traits and cultures?

I'm bolding that description, because that is where I want to focus for a second.

What does "brutal-savage-evil" give us anyways? What value are we getting.

For example, Evil. Why have something born evil? That is not only boring but just a huge problem from a worldbuilding perspective. So figure out why they are Evil. Are they evil because they believe in "might makes right" and "the strong rule the weak". Great, we can work with that. We can imagine a society that has been at war so long that the idea of offering mercy to an enemy is seen as abberrant. They don't spar or train, if they get into a fight it is until one of them stops moving, because that proves they are strong.

And why are they that way? Well, I already explained it. War. Endless centuries of War.

And now, we look at Brutal and Savage. Well, that slots in nicely doesn't it? I'm picturing that Rambo: Last Blood movie. Brutal and Savage describes how Rambo killed all those men. War would do that.

But, now we get to the kicker. The truly beautiful part of this. What happens to orcs not raised in Orc society? None of that above stuff applies to them. Those norms are not the norms they have. Their worship of Gruumsh as the God of Strength might be for the Strength to forgive others. They didn't have that formative moment where two children got into a scrap, one helps the other up, and the adult demeans them because a true warrior would finish off his enemy, not aid him in standing. Without those experiences, Orcs are just people.

The point being, if we broaden each race in such a way that they become more human, they start losing their distinctness, their specificity. Furthermore, having non-human archetypes gives the freedom to explore various archetypes and What If questions without racializing it--if it is clearly understood that said non-human race is just that: not human. But if the point is to both de-racialize them (for those who make that connection) and bring them greater depth and complexity, how to do so without losing their distinctness? And if you use sub-races, wouldn't the same concern still apply or would the fact that "Gruumsh orcs" are one of many types negate the racial connotations?

The problem is, they are human. At a fundamental level, they have to be.

I don't remember which ancient philosopher it was, but they made a claim that I think applies here. "Man is the measure of all things"

We, as humans, cannot create a race of people that use language, tools, and housing without making them a mirror of ourselves. We just can't, because we are the only thing we have ever encountered that does those things. And, every single time in history someone has said "but those aren't really people" they've been wrong.

So, I think the solution is very much to limit things to points that aren't personality based. Orcs, Humans and Halflings are very similiar in terms of lifespan, and halflings and humans seem to be very similar in just about all aspects.

Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes all live a lot longer, and that can be used to make them different. You can also do things like I gave Elves a "memory garden". Essentially when they Trance, they can revisit and affect their own memories. They can literally chose to forget things, or enshrine certain memories. That makes them different without having to say something like "All elves are born more empathetic than the other races, their gods demanding that they learn everything about other people they can" Which, would just be weird.

I also want to point this out. You never have a race "born with" or "forced by a god" to have good traits. Orcs are just born violent and savage, but no race is just born kind-hearted and merciful. Something to consider.

With respect, the creatures under discussion are still considered humanoids under current rules. When WotC publishes new versions of the monsters, then your position might be solid. Until then, if not prefaced with "in my campaign, these are monsters, so..." your argument will fail under the shared standard at hand.

Why would a fictional culture (not the players, who have metagame information about monster classifications) not consider one sentient creature eating another to be cannibalism?

Or, perhaps more central - what role do you believe the classification of an act as "cannibalism" plays within a culture? Why does a culture bother to have a word for it at all? Why are you not considered "meat" by your next door neighbor?

Side Tangent:

I actually wanted to do something with Cannabalism in my games, because I wanted to take this idea of "eating the fallen to gain their strength" but not make it this horrid evil thing it is often depicted as, because breaking tropes is fun.


I ended up doing it with the Yuan-Ti (who have a lot of Aztec/Meso-American symbols in them so, could be problematic, but I was basing everything off of an action, so hopefully I side-stepped the worse issues). I decided that the Yuan-Ti came into existence because they literally found their god (a snake diety) dying and wounded. The diety offered the weak and starving people it's flesh and blood so they could survive, and thrive. What they couldn't eat became other snakes and scattered.

Now, they have the same three tiered society you are thinking the Thin-Bloods (called pure-bloods by the books for some stupid reason), the Half-Bloods and the Pure-Bloods (formerly abominations, because people would totally call their close to divine nobles that eyeroll intensifies). When someone dies, or during special holy days, their body is purified and eaten. The Thin-Bloods tend to eat snakes, the Half-Bloods eat Thin-Bloods, on up the chain. This is sometimes altered for truly exceptional individuals. The goal is to recombine the essence of the gods, bringing them back in the flesh by purifying their power, along with keeping the essence of the people alive and within the community.

Now, here are some kickers. Firstly, it is considered a horrendous crime to eat someone who is unwilling. If you are chosen as a sacrifice, and you say no, your time is not now, then that is the end of it, and someone who pushes would be seen as blasphemous. Secondly, leaving behind the dead to rot is either a divine punishment, or a cowardly crime. I could see a heinous criminal being killed and left to rot and decay, their essence being deemed unfit to stay within the community. I also have an NPC for conventions, who is a massive coward. One of his greatest regrets in life was that his party was attacked by an evil spirit, and killed. And he abandoned them to rot. This choice haunts him, because from a certain perspective, he essentially consigned their souls to hell to save his own life. And finally, they understand that their practice seems weird to other people. They might offer to a stalwart companion who is afraid they aren't going to make it through the battle, that they will make sure to consume their corpse if they can. But they wouldn't force their beliefs on others.

But yeah, that was my take on a different style of cannabalism.

 

[Umbran]

Side Tangent:

Now, they have the same three tiered society you are thinking the Thin-Bloods (called pure-bloods by the books for some stupid reason), the Half-Bloods and the Pure-Bloods (formerly abominations, because people would totally call their close to divine nobles that eyeroll intensifies).

Ah. Simple - the names in the book are the names others give them. Your dude from Waterdeep calls them an abomination, because to him, that's what they seem to be. The dude from Waterdeep call's them pure bloods, because they are the closest to his ideal of pure.

The Yuan-ti certainly wouldn't call them that. Unless they think of "abomination" as something super cool - like kids who think gross stuff is awesome...

 

[Oofta]

The problem I've always had with "if orcs are raised outside of they're culture they're nice" is that it smacks even more of colonialism. Teach those savages to be civilized by forcing our religion and culture on them.

So what if the effects of Gruumsh is more explicit? It's literally a "curse of war" and when an orc hits adolescence they are coerced into being a weapon for Gruumsh? Someone raised in the culture would probably see it as a blessing, someone raised outside of the culture can try to fight it off. If there's a large enough population of orcs that has rejected Gruumsh, they may have special rituals to help fight the curse.

Again, it's about having my (evil orc) cake and eating it too while adding in something that could be an interesting twist.

 

[Xenonnonex]

The problem I've always had with "if orcs are raised outside of they're culture they're nice" is that it smacks even more of colonialism. Teach those savages to be civilized by forcing our religion and culture on them.

So what if the effects of Gruumsh is more explicit? It's literally a "curse of war" and when an orc hits adolescence they are coerced into being a weapon for Gruumsh? Someone raised in the culture would probably see it as a blessing, someone raised outside of the culture can try to fight it off. If there's a large enough population of orcs that has rejected Gruumsh, they may have special rituals to help fight the curse.

Again, it's about having my (evil orc) cake and eating it too while adding in something that could be an interesting twist.

If orc lore was well crafted to begin with. And unique in its approach. There would no links to colonialism. Only what you choose to deliberately link to.

Evil orcs are also fine here. If they are dominated by their evil gods. Reason is you have a balanced race. Not wholly evil.

 

[Oofta]

If orc lore was well crafted to begin with. And unique in its approach. There would no links to colonialism. Only what you choose to deliberately link to.

Evil orcs are also fine here. If they are dominated by their evil gods. Reason is you have a balanced race. Not wholly evil.

I don't want to throw out the entire heritage of orcs. I also think that while @Chaosmancer post was well written, it still has the "orcs not raised in that culture" issue.

Was there anything in my suggestion that means you could not have orcs of any alignment? Pre-adolescent orcs could be any alignment, but at a certain point they are literally cursed and drafted to Gruumsh's call. It could be a pretty horrible thing, it's literally an evil god imposing his will on his subjects.

I think it also opens up interesting ideas for those who want it - like can they be redeemed? Is there a way to break the curse for large numbers of orcs or is there a limited amount of time before it's permanent? I'm envisioning someone who adopted an orc and seemingly overnight they change.

Got a more detailed option or specific issue? Feel free to share.

 

[Xenonnonex]

Not throwing anything out. You still have evil orcs. Who follow traditional gods.
What I am doing is adding more layers of lore. Better lore. Well crafted lore. Ideally. You can still have traditional monsters. As well as better PC options. Without any issue of colonialism.

 

[Umbran]

Evil orcs are also fine here. If they are dominated by their evil gods. Reason is you have a balanced race. Not wholly evil.

Imagine, if you will, a world in which humans, demi-humans, and humanoids are all created by the heads of their pantheons. However, the gods that created humanoids are a greedy lot, and wanted to include a reason for them to not wander - they make it so their races can only get divine magic from within their respective pantheon.

So, they are free willed, not intrinsically evil. However, in their communities, the clerical power (so, healing in the community) comes from people willing to do the bidding of these gods, which is going to include keeping the flock in line, and influencing the community in the direction the gods prefer.

 

[Aldarc]

The problem I've always had with "if orcs are raised outside of they're culture they're nice" is that it smacks even more of colonialism. Teach those savages to be civilized by forcing our religion and culture on them.

Except this is not what people are arguing - raising orcs outside of their culture - so your problem seems misplaced, though well-intentioned. People have argued for orcish cultures with nuance and complexity. Alternatives to a singular culture of inherent wickedness.

 

[Oofta]

Except this is not what people are arguing - raising orcs outside of their culture - so your problem seems misplaced, though well-intentioned. People have argued for orcish cultures with nuance and complexity. Alternatives to a singular culture of inherent wickedness.

One of the issues I have with Volo's Guide is the colonialist aspect. That it's the culture but even orcs raised outside of it are still always angry but can turn only turn out good if they reject their true nature.

So I want an external source (backed up by the clergy as Umbran said) that makes them evil and less intelligent, not that they are evil or less intelligent by nature. If we can do that then we can maintain heritage while maybe breaking some of the bad connotations.

That still leaves room for nuance in the culture for different campaigns. Yes, the orcs that worship Gruumsh are evil, the orcs that worship different gods may not be. It also side-steps the "people of this ethnicity are cool unless they worship this religion" that we see in the real world.

Or it's just because I've been watching Brightburn where

Spoiler

Ma and Pa Kent stand-ins adopt superman but when he begins adolescence the evil voices make him evil.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The problem I've always had with "if orcs are raised outside of they're culture they're nice" is that it smacks even more of colonialism. Teach those savages to be civilized by forcing our religion and culture on them.

So what if the effects of Gruumsh is more explicit? It's literally a "curse of war" and when an orc hits adolescence they are coerced into being a weapon for Gruumsh? Someone raised in the culture would probably see it as a blessing, someone raised outside of the culture can try to fight it off. If there's a large enough population of orcs that has rejected Gruumsh, they may have special rituals to help fight the curse.

Again, it's about having my (evil orc) cake and eating it too while adding in something that could be an interesting twist.

Sure, you could. I don't quite see it as colonial though.

A quick aside, I work as a substitute teacher and my mother runs a daycare. Children? Children are terrible. I have seen countless times when a small child hits another child, and when asked... they don't know why they did it. So, we tell them no, that hitting is bad.

The orc society I proposed would never do that. They wouldn't instill that in their kids. But, a fantasy elven society? They likely would.


But the curse of war idea is interesting. I just... man I get tired of it being the fault of evil gods. It removes a bit of agency from them that you don't see happen with the other races. Elves don't have a "curse of art" that Corellon imposes on them to make them artists. It just seems weird to me that it is only evil gods and they only make their people violent and it only ever seems to happen to the races that are villianous raiders.

Imagine, if you will, a world in which humans, demi-humans, and humanoids are all created by the heads of their pantheons. However, the gods that created humanoids are a greedy lot, and wanted to include a reason for them to not wander - they make it so their races can only get divine magic from within their respective pantheon.

So, they are free willed, not intrinsically evil. However, in their communities, the clerical power (so, healing in the community) comes from people willing to do the bidding of these gods, which is going to include keeping the flock in line, and influencing the community in the direction the gods prefer.

oooh, I like that. I prefer racial pantheons and have been trying to think of reasons not to mix the worship too much. This is a perfect avenue to take, that they literally can't derive power from the other gods. Thanks.