D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

Chaosmancer

Legend
I love new stuff, and am always a proponent of a more "progressive" approach to D&D. New worlds, styles, themes, rather than endless retreads and updates. And, as I just said in the post you quoted, I fully support making some changes to faciliate people feeling more inclusive.

But I don't see how a "big tent" approach to D&D--that includes but expands older tropes--is a bad thing. D&D has had may flavors over the years, both with editions and different settings. I'm of a mind that all such flavors should be incorporated within a "big tent" edition, from Gygaxian to Mercerian.

But not all tropes are worth saving.

Let us take the "Damsel in Distress". Classic trope, the big brutish monster has kidnapped the beautiful and fair princess to be his bride, and she will marry one of you if you go and rescue her.

Is this trope really worth keeping around? Does it truly give us anything of value?



Here's a example of what I mean, reposted from up-thread:

Is there aything that you disagree with in that quote?

I also said a couple posts ago that I can play D&D however I want to, no matter what WotC does--so the "they're not taking your books away" critique doesn't really apply to what I'm saying. But I do hope to see a diverse range and treatment of monsters and such in future books, including traditional variants (e.g. evil orc brutes).

Yeah, why bother including versions of orcs that no longer exist or are not DnD?

Tolkien's orcs were corrupted elves, a player might find that cool, but A) Tolkien's estate won't let DnD print that and B) It doesn't do you any good to know that if the DM is running a world where that isn't true.

Also, what does it help for them to know that orcs were inspired by ogres, but now they are separate things? I think you could really just cut that down to guidance on incorporating them. Because if I want to know the mythical history of orcs in folktale dating back to the greeks or beyond... I'll get a textbook written on the subject which will be much better researched and referenced that what a gaming company would be capable of doing.
 

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Dire Bare

Legend
How much of D&D tradition has already been excised from the game for various reasons? Level limits, THACO, ability adjustments by gender, race-as-class, varying XP charts . . . . today's 5E is pretty different from all prior editions, even with the design intent to carry forward what we love about D&D.

Orcs and drow as intrinsically evil races is pretty traditional for D&D, and for the fantasy genre it pulls from. It is comfort-food for some of us who like to escape from reality for a while by engaging in indiscriminate slaughter of the baddies.

But tradition always takes a back seat to improved inclusivity in my book. Just like the game ditched the misogyny of ability adjustments by gender, the game needs to ditch the racist tropes embedded in the way the concept of race is treated. The game will be the better for it, and we won't be losing very much.

We won't be losing evil orcs and evil drow, we'll be losing the idea that those entire races are defined by their evil and savagery. Just as humans aren't inherently evil, but yet have been behind ALL of the atrocities committed in the real world.

Even with orcs and drow losing their evil souls, there will be no shortage of cartoonishly evil villains to vanquish. We lose nothing, we gain much.

The more this circular discussion has dragged on, the more I'm convinced that some folks just fear change and will hold us back for no valid reason. And I'm happy that WotC and the industry will be leaving those folks behind. I'm sure most of them will adapt and continue playing the game anyways.

So tradition vs inclusivity? Screw tradition. At least when it is being clutched by those with myopic viewpoints who value their comfort food over the hurt and unwelcome caused to gamers of color.

This thread has had some good posts . . . but it's long past jumped the shark. I'm done.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I was unaware that Melniboneans were depicted as man hating dominatrixes in fetish costumes who worshipped a black widow spider. :erm:

The physical description of Melniboneans is elvish in nature. They were a race of evil, magically powerful elves who worshiped what amounted to demon gods. Sound familiar?
 

Mercurius

Legend
But not all tropes are worth saving.

Let us take the "Damsel in Distress". Classic trope, the big brutish monster has kidnapped the beautiful and fair princess to be his bride, and she will marry one of you if you go and rescue her.

Is this trope really worth keeping around? Does it truly give us anything of value?

The Damsel in Distress is only problematic if females are only depicted as damsels. Nothing wrong with damsels existing; I've known a few in my day. Women, like men, come in limitless variety.

Anyhow, there are other ways to read that basic story template. When you read it through the lens of critical theory, sure, it looks a certain way. But that's only one reading, one pespective, and ignores, for instance, mythological archetypes. My sense from engaging in these conversations is that most of those who interpret D&D tropes in a negative light are doing so solely from a particular lens, that of critical theory and its offspring. There are other meta-analytic perspectives to take that yield different interpretations (e.g. Jungian/Campbellian), or integral theory (e.g. Ken Wilber).

D&D, as a game, doesn't need to either embody critical theory ideas, nor mythic archetypes. It is a game, for fun, and it could be a fun campaign to rescue a damsel (or a dude).


Yeah, why bother including versions of orcs that no longer exist or are not DnD?

Tolkien's orcs were corrupted elves, a player might find that cool, but A) Tolkien's estate won't let DnD print that and B) It doesn't do you any good to know that if the DM is running a world where that isn't true.

Also, what does it help for them to know that orcs were inspired by ogres, but now they are separate things? I think you could really just cut that down to guidance on incorporating them. Because if I want to know the mythical history of orcs in folktale dating back to the greeks or beyond... I'll get a textbook written on the subject which will be much better researched and referenced that what a gaming company would be capable of doing.

Because one of the best parts of D&D is that it is a toolbox game: we get to create our own version of it. And because the history is interesting - the mythic roots, Tolkien's influence, Gygax's prototype, all the way up to the Mercer stuff.

Jazz isn't just what's happening now in Tokyo and Paris. It is Miles Davis and Billie Holiday and Louis Armstrong; it is also early blues and slave songs and traditional African music. It is a tradition, with many branches and a historical development.

But, sure, some people just want to play the game. But why not provide a game that offers a variety of options?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I have exhibited little active "resistance" to changes in any meaningful way

"I remain unconvinced..."
"I remain disturbed..."
"...I started accepting the fact that a lot of this is inevitable..."
"Some folks on the "other side" ..., seemingly feeling that no compromise or alternate approaches are acceptable. I don't think there is anything I can do about this kind of intractability..."

I don't think I'm supposed to read any of this as agreement, am I? It sounds like disagreement, and meeting positions that will not yield. At the best is sounds like resignation. Pardon me if I read that as summing up to resistance.

But, if you feel even that is unwarranted, my apologies. Consider it retracted.

However, that still leaves the central question unanswered: Did you consider the possibility that this is what the designers actually want to do?
 

Mercurius

Legend
"I remain unconvinced..."
"I remain disturbed..."
"...I started accepting the fact that a lot of this is inevitable..."
"Some folks on the "other side" ..., seemingly feeling that no compromise or alternate approaches are acceptable. I don't think there is anything I can do about this kind of intractability..."

I don't think I'm supposed to read any of this as agreement, am I? It sounds like disagreement, and meeting positions that will not yield. At the best is sounds like resignation. Pardon me if I read that as summing up to resistance.

But, if you feel even that is unwarranted, my apologies. Consider it retracted.

However, that still leaves the central question unanswered: Did you consider the possibility that this is what the designers actually want to do?

So one must agree or they are resisting? I am not resisting change, I am resisting agreeing with something I don't agree with. And even "resistance" isn't right, because I will--and often do--change my perspective if there is a compelling reason to do so. I was trying to express to Oofta that I could disagree with an interpretation, but not resist actual changes.

I thought I answered you. First of all, I didn't suggest that the designers are being forced into anything. I don't know their thinking, but suspect it is a combination of factors, maybe including because they want to.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I may be influenced from a D&D campaign where the Melniboneans were the fair-skinned Drowesti elves but I see them as fitting well as a prime candidate for a strong influence on the Drow portrayal in D1-3.

I will say it again - Edgar Rice Burroughs. Barsoom. Black Martians.

Living in vast cavern complexes underground, virtually nobody knows they exist. Black skin. Feel they are supreme creatures. Slavers, manipulating the surface world. Putting questionable achievers through ordeals. Led by a high priestess a thousand years old.... the list of similarities goes on.

I expect anyone here who reads the first adventure in the home of the Black Martians would think, "Oh, this is where the drow come from."
 

Dire Bare

Legend
I will say it again - Edgar Rice Burroughs. Barsoom. Black Martians.

Living in vast cavern complexes underground, virtually nobody knows they exist. Black skin. Feel they are supreme creatures. Slavers, manipulating the surface world. Putting questionable achievers through ordeals. Led by a high priestess a thousand years old.... the list of similarities goes on.

I expect anyone here who reads the first adventure in the home of the Black Martians would think, "Oh, this is where the drow come from."
What myths and literature do the drow race pull from in D&D?
  1. Svartalfar, Norse myth
  2. Melniboneans, "Elric of Melnibone" Michael Moorcock
  3. Black Martians, "John Carter of Mars" Edgar Rice Burroughs
  4. All of the Above!
I choose answer #4! Or do all three fantasy races (Drow, Melniboneans, Black Martians) all pull from the same mythic archetype?!?!

Actually, has anyone ever asked the guy who designed the drow race for its inclusion in the Field Folio all those decades ago?
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
The Damsel in Distress is only problematic if females are only depicted as damsels. Nothing wrong with damsels existing; I've known a few in my day. Women, like men, come in limitless variety.

Anyhow, there are other ways to read that basic story template. When you read it through the lens of critical theory, sure, it looks a certain way. But that's only one reading, one pespective, and ignores, for instance, mythological archetypes. My sense from engaging in these conversations is that most of those who interpret D&D tropes in a negative light are doing so solely from a particular lens, that of critical theory and its offspring. There are other meta-analytic perspectives to take that yield different interpretations (e.g. Jungian/Campbellian), or integral theory (e.g. Ken Wilber).

D&D, as a game, doesn't need to either embody critical theory ideas, nor mythic archetypes. It is a game, for fun, and it could be a fun campaign to rescue a damsel (or a dude).

I see you didn't read the story template very closely. Or, you find the myths of female disempowerment to be fine in the modern day.

For example, did you note that the end of the adventure involves the princess marrying one of the heroes? She didn't agree to that (implied by the fact it is one sentence which includes us being told she is kidnapped) so she is supposed to be just fine marrying the hero that rescued her?

And, why is it that the monster wants to marry her? In many myths it is simple. She is beautiful, therefore everyone wants to marry her. And she, as a woman, has no agency and will marry the good hero and not the ugly monster.

I'm sure Jung could have a very thorough psychological analysis of what this story says about the human condition. I'm also sure that my sister would call it a load of [insert your favorite expletives here] and not accept the princess being a gilded trophy being passed around.


And things you can do with that story, such as have the princess be unwilling to marry, are generally constructed as twists... but since they are more realistic in our modern society, presenting that as a twist "surprise, this woman doesn't want to marry a dude she literally just met" falls flat.

Now, I'm not saying that no character should ever be kidnapped or disempowered, sure, that can happen. But, taken as a whole, while a myth and story that survived for hundreds of years, it isn't something I think we really want at the table.




Because one of the best parts of D&D is that it is a toolbox game: we get to create our own version of it. And because the history is interesting - the mythic roots, Tolkien's influence, Gygax's prototype, all the way up to the Mercer stuff.

Jazz isn't just what's happening now in Tokyo and Paris. It is Miles Davis and Billie Holiday and Louis Armstrong; it is also early blues and slave songs and traditional African music. It is a tradition, with many branches and a historical development.

But, sure, some people just want to play the game. But why not provide a game that offers a variety of options?

You seem to be missing the point.

Sure, the history is interesting. But if I by a Jazz CD by (googles) Joel Ross I don't really want a dissertation on how his sound was influenced by Billie Holiday. I want to listen to a CD by Joel Ross.

If I want to play DnD with orcs, I don't want to read about how Tolkien took and adapted the idea of ogres into orcs and what he based them on. I want to play DnD with orcs. And, while a "variety of options" sounds good. Options that include racist undertones and implications of sexual violence (with regards to half-orcs) aren't the kind of options I want presented in the game. They've existed for decades, I'm sure it was fun, but lets move on and do something else.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
So one must agree or they are resisting?

I already apologized, and said you may consider it retracted. If that's not enough for you, sorry, I don't have anything else.

But, if you must - in a purely logical sense, yes. If you are presented with a suggestion or posit, and you say, "No..." you are resisting that suggestion or posit. You yourself mentioned finding people intractable. Does that not imply a mutual resistance of ideas?

First of all, I didn't suggest that the designers are being forced into anything. I don't know their thinking...

If artistic freedom is the real concern, what they are thinking should be the central question.
 

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