Two Weapon Fighting with Greatsword and Armor Spikes?

[brianfitz]

Ok, I'm new to the site, so if this question has come up, please forgive me as I can't seem to locate the search button!

Can a Ranger (or any class with TWF) utilize the benefits of the feat using a Greatsword wielded two-handed and Armor Spikes for offhand attacks?

Thanks in advance!

Brian

 

[Hypersmurf]

The FAQ says yes.

I personally wouldn't allow it, since my inclination is only to allow an off-hand attack if your off-hand is not being used to wield a weapon already.

I don't mind someone holding a lantern in their left hand and kicking as an off-hand attack; I object to someone gaining the benefits of wielding a greataxe in both hands and doing the same - it strikes me as 'double-dipping'.

-Hyp.

 

[Legildur]

I don't mind someone holding a lantern in their left hand and kicking as an off-hand attack; I object to someone gaining the benefits of wielding a greataxe in both hands and doing the same - it strikes me as 'double-dipping'.

Is that a none-rules based response to a rules question by the Smurf? :\

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is that a none-rules based response to a rules question by the Smurf? :\

It depends. For a start, I prefaced it with 'I personally'

Apart from that... the Two Weapon Fighting rules specify that you can make an extra attack when wielding a second weapon in your off-hand.

Armor spikes state that you can make a regular attack or an off-hand attack with them.

What does making an off-hand attack mean? It means -4 on the attack roll, and half Str bonus to damage.

Armor spikes don't state that they count as a second weapon wielded in your off-hand; thus, a strict reading would indicate that while you can make an off-hand attack with them, you cannot make an extra off-hand attack with them. You are not two-weapon fighting; you are simply making an off-hand attack, much as if you elected to swing a longsword with your weaker or less-dextrous hand.

Now, we generally permit someone who is making an off-hand attack in addition to a primary attack to do so using the two-weapon fighting rules; since this is not a strict interpretation of the text of TWF, however, I don't consider disallowing an extra off-hand with armor spikes while wielding a greatsword to be less rules-based an answer than allowing an extra off-hand with armor spikes while wielding a greatsword... and it offends my sensibilities less to forbid the double-dipping.

-Hyp.

 

[DogBackward]

I dunno, I think you may be reading too much into the exact wording. Why would they mention you could use it as an off-hand attack if it wasn't meant to be allowed with TWF? Why would anyone choose to use it as an off-hand attack when you don't have to? Plus, I can easily see someone swing a greatsword then follow up with a quick rush using their shoulder-spikes.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I dunno, I think you may be reading too much into the exact wording. Why would they mention you could use it as an off-hand attack if it wasn't meant to be allowed with TWF? Why would anyone choose to use it as an off-hand attack when you don't have to?

Which is why I say we generally permit someone to use it with TWF. But I wouldn't allow it if you'd already used up all your hands actually wielding weapons.

-Hyp.

 

[Legildur]

It depends. For a start, I prefaced it with 'I personally'

<snip of the rules-based answer>

Phew! Distaster averted and order restored....

 

[DogBackward]

Actually, doing so is forbidden by the actual description of the armor spikes, which says you can't use them as an off-hand and use a weapon in your off-hand in the same round.

I was actually addressing the fact that you said you allow this in spite of RAW. The way I read it, using your armor spikes with TWF is RAW, not a house rule.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, doing so is forbidden by the actual description of the armor spikes, which says you can't use them as an off-hand and use a weapon in your off-hand in the same round.

It says you can't use them in the same round you use an off-hand weapon. It's the buckler that refers to 'if you use a weapon in your off-hand'.

I'd say that if I'm swinging a greatsword with both hands, it's a weapon in my off-hand, but it isn't an off-hand weapon. Thus, it denies the buckler bonus, but it does not trigger the armor spikes clause.

I was actually addressing the fact that you said you allow this in spite of RAW.

Right. Because the extra attack applies if you are wielding a second weapon in your off-hand, and someone using armor spikes isn't.

-Hyp.

 

[DogBackward]

Like I said, I think you're reading too much into a simple difference in wording. Such things are all over the place in DnD. The description for armor spikes says you can use it as an off-hand weapon. Just because it doesn't specifically say "a weapon in your off-hand" doesn't mean you can't use it with TWF. You can't use it as a weapon in your off-hand, because you can't hold armor spikes. But it can be used as an off-hand weapon, as mentioned in the description, which is the same thing. And if that's not enough... like I said, why would they mention that it can be used as a primary weapon or an off-hand weapon? Who would want to use it as an off-hand weapon when they don't have to?

Admittedly, they could be more clear on the subject. But that can pretty much be said about most of the rules in the game.