Two-Weapon Fighting

[Xeriar]

Kraedin, why are you so insistent on making it all one feat? Going florentine is frigging -HARD- and I find it nice that it takes so many feats to do properly.

It's also completely broken for someone with three or more limbs, regardless.

I mean, in real life, in any sense, you first havve to train your off hand a bit (Ambidexterity) - no small task if you weren't born that way. Then you have to learn to use them independantly, and the mind is usually pretty focused on using one hand at a time, or the two together, so if you suck at this, you end up being rather predictable in combat.

Even then, you will tend to favor one hand, always. Not just because it's your dominant hand, but its what your mind is best at concentrating at.

 

[Marshall]

Re: Full attacks. This is a pretty much a moot point by 12th level or so. At this point characters should have access to Haste in most battles which will enable them to partial charge and full attack or move and full attack.

Works both ways tho. Haste usually cancels itself out. (its still overpowered tho)

The non-TWF rogue could have spring attack instead but going into melee with a dragon, it's not going to help much (unless the rogue has boots of striding and springing). If the rogue wants to move, attack, and move he'll probably still usually be a mere five foot step from the dragon's threat range. And if he wants to be further away, he'll have to tumble just like the TWF rogue.

The Boots of Standard Equipment? Guaranteed!

The one feat for ambidex and TWF (as long as you only use a specific weapon combo) would be a bit much though. Since most characters who use TWF use a specific weapon combo their entire careers (usually picking up weapon focus, EWP, or Weapon finesse early in their careers), there's little reason to take actual TWF and Ambidex.

Looks like you'll be disappointed come June then. Combining Ambi/TWF is the standard in all the new d20 products. Dont see why 3e(rev) will be different

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The Boots of Standard Equipment? Guaranteed!

Not guaranteed by a long shot. I've seen far more characters with boots of speed or slippers of spider-climbing than with boots of striding and springing. Maybe it was different before the DMG erratta jacked up the price but they're hardly ubiquitous. Now, maybe the spring attack rogue would have boots of striding and springing because it's more advantageous to the character concept than Haste is (haste doesn't combine very well with spring attack if you use spring attack to enter and then get out of your foe's threatened area).

In any case, even with the boots a single classed human rogue would only have 60 feet to move in a single round which would be thirty feet toward the dragon and thirty feet away if he's trying to keep his distance. Now, since large dragons are long creatures that commonly have a 15 foot reach, all the dragon needs to do is gain ten feet by adjusting which way it's oriented (lengthwise) before the 5 foot step and the rogue is within threatened range for a full attack. That's a pretty cheesy tactic but it could work.

Looks like you'll be disappointed come June then. Combining Ambi/TWF is the standard in all the new d20 products. Dont see why 3e(rev) will be different

I see we have a buyer for the myth of progress here. "It's the way of the future so it must be true/right/good idea."

Just because something is going to happen doesn't make it good or wise. And sometimes it turns out that those prophecies about the future don't come true after all. So I think I'm better off making my own mind up about what's a good idea and what isn't and leaving the future to sort itself out. Maybe it will be better, maybe it will be worse, maybe the future will be the same. But it's not better just because it's more modern. Unless of course you think Spam is better than Sirloin steak. (Spam is certainly a more recent invention.)

My mini-rant aside, if this is another d20 Modern, Spycraft, etc analogy, I remain unconvinced. Different settings demand different rulesets. There are plenty of different systems which didn't combine Ambidexterity and Two Weapon Fighting (Star Wars and D20 Call of Cthulu come to mind).

 

[Marshall]

Not guaranteed by a long shot. I've seen far more characters with boots of speed or slippers of spider-climbing than with boots of striding and springing. Maybe it was different before the DMG erratta jacked up the price but they're hardly ubiquitous. Now, maybe the spring attack rogue would have boots of striding and springing because it's more advantageous to the character concept than Haste is (haste doesn't combine very well with spring attack if you use spring attack to enter and then get out of your foe's threatened area).

The question is wether or not you allow custom magic items. Without custom items you have a decision to make, with 'em you get "boots of standard equipment". Heck its only 20Kgp to get Boots of Speed, Striding & Springing and Spider Climbing.....

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

That rather depends on how generous a DM you are/have and how they figure the rules for such things. According to the Munchkin test DelverBash (www.delverbash.com IIRC) the pricing for such boots would be 13.5k (speed) +3k slippers +7.5k boots so it'd run you 24 kgp. to combine all three in one item.

However, I've yet to DM any campaign that's gone high enough level that I would even consider allowing such things.

The question is wether or not you allow custom magic items. Without custom items you have a decision to make, with 'em you get "boots of standard equipment". Heck its only 20Kgp to get Boots of Speed, Striding & Springing and Spider Climbing.....

 

[Kraedin]

Kraedin, why are you so insistent on making it all one feat? Going florentine is frigging -HARD- and I find it nice that it takes so many feats to do properly.

It's also completely broken for someone with three or more limbs, regardless.

I mean, in real life, in any sense, you first havve to train your off hand a bit (Ambidexterity) - no small task if you weren't born that way. Then you have to learn to use them independantly, and the mind is usually pretty focused on using one hand at a time, or the two together, so if you suck at this, you end up being rather predictable in combat.

Even then, you will tend to favor one hand, always. Not just because it's your dominant hand, but its what your mind is best at concentrating at.

Actually, I'm up to two feats now; I simply did not repost my Multidexterity feat. (It's posted above.) The reason I'm trying to reduce the feat requirement for florentine fencing styles is because it is not signifigantly better than the two-handed weapon styles. Requiring 4-5 feats for a style that is not signifigantly better seems... off... to me.

To the brokenness with more than two limbs: it's no more broken (relativily speaking) that the offical WotC interpretation.

 

[Marshall]

That rather depends on how generous a DM you are/have and how they figure the rules for such things. According to the Munchkin test DelverBash (www.delverbash.com IIRC) the pricing for such boots would be 13.5k (speed) +3k slippers +7.5k boots so it'd run you 24 kgp. to combine all three in one item.

8000 - Base cost Boots of Speed(Unless I missed an Errata somewheres)
4000 - Striding - Expeditious Retreat - 1x1x2000x 2(secondary)
4000 - Springing - 10^2x20x 2(secondary)
4000 - Spider Climbing - 1x1x2000 x 2(secondary)
-------
20,000 gp

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

OK, apparently Delverbash uses a different formula to calculate the cost of stacked powers. In this case, though, you really should be using the boots of striding and springing cost from the DMG erratta. They're now a base of 5 or 6kgp.

In any event, unlimited access to DMG power stacking rules or no, I would not expect Striding and Springing powers to be ubiquitous in a party of 12th to 14th level adventurers. There are too many other useful things for such characters to spend their money on. (And in neither the 9th level, the 12th level, nor the 14th level campaign I played in did more than one character have such boots--and often not even that many. Other peoples' experience obviously may differ).

8000 - Base cost Boots of Speed(Unless I missed an Errata somewheres)
4000 - Striding - Expeditious Retreat - 1x1x2000x 2(secondary)
4000 - Springing - 10^2x20x 2(secondary)
4000 - Spider Climbing - 1x1x2000 x 2(secondary)
-------
20,000 gp

 

[Spatula]

Actually, I'm up to two feats now; I simply did not repost my Multidexterity feat. (It's posted above.) The reason I'm trying to reduce the feat requirement for florentine fencing styles is because it is not signifigantly better than the two-handed weapon styles. Requiring 4-5 feats for a style that is not signifigantly better seems... off... to me.

Ambi + 2WF is a little weak compared to a 2-handed weapon. Ambi + 2WF + Impr 2WF + Grtr 2WF is not. I don't have much of a problem combining Ambi + 2WF into one feat (or one feat that only works with one weapon combo), but also folding Improved 2WF and Greater 2WF into the feat is a mistake, IMO. Just like you wouldn't combine Dodge + Mobility + Spring Attack into one feat (even though dodge and mobility are a little weak). The higher-level 2WF feats are the payoff for taking Ambi + 2WF, just as Spring Attack is the payoff for taking Dodge and Mobility.

To the brokenness with more than two limbs: it's no more broken (relativily speaking) that the offical WotC interpretation.

Multi-armed creatures can never get more than 1 attack with their off-hands, officially, unless they have some special racial ability or something. That's significantly different than what you're doing.

 

[Kraedin]

Improved Multi-Weapon Fighting, Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting, and Perfect Multi-Weapon Fighting are all in published WotC products. (D&Dg, ELH, MotW, I belive.)