Unearthed Arcana UA feats, are they trying to allow people to not have to multiclass to get class abilities?

[SkidAce]

I like MCing as is.

However, the new "mc feats" are a good in-between to a a bit of another class's flavor.

 

[ccs]

I like these well enough. I don't see anything that'll cause problems at our table. So I'll print a copy for the players in my Thur game (only one of them might ever check out UA on their own).

As for MCing?
I don't like it when all it's used for mechanical advantage. Your character is not a ***#&% MTG deck. You are not assembling the ultimate boardgame piece - at least not in games I run.
However, MC definitely has a place when used to add to the expanding story, to represent changes to your character through play. So I'd never advocate for ditching it.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Come to think of it... there's no Monk feat either...

Okay, list of classes, and their dip feats:

• Artificer: Artificer Initiate (Good feat, maybe a bit OP, some people want an infusion feat)
• Barbarian: There's nothing here. Maybe they could make a feat that gives something like Brutal Critical or Reckless Attack.
• Bard: Magic Initiate (Bard), maybe Practiced Expert and nothing else. (Some have recommended Bardic Inspiration. I think that could work, but would be overshadowed by Lucky)
• Cleric: Magic Initiate (Cleric), Ritual Caster, nothing else. (Some have recommended Channel Divinity. I think this would work, but they're going to have to decide how broad it is.)
• Druid: Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster, nothing else. (Some have recommended Wild Shape. To this, I disagree. Druids own wild shape, no one else can have it. Maybe a feat that makes you a shape changer)
• Fighter: Martial Adept, Fighting Initiate, the armor/shield feats could fit under here (We need nothing else, IMO.)
• Monk: Absolutely nothing (right, isn't there nothing? Maybe Tavern Brawler? Any thoughts on a monk feat? Give Ki or something, like MM Initiate?)
• Paladin: Nothing. (Maybe a possible Channel Divinity feat, or Lay on Hands. I'm indifferent to this)
• Ranger: Tracker (We don't really need anything else)
• Rogue: I guess you could count Skulker and Tandem Tactician, maybe Practiced Expert (Some have said a Sneak Attack feat, I don't see the need for it. Maybe a Cunning Action feat)
• Sorcerer: Magic Initiate (Sorcerer), Metamagic Initiate (I don't think we need anything else. Maybe some more planar feats, but those don't really belong to sorcerers)
• Warlock: Magic Initiate (Warlock), Eldritch Adept (We don't really need another one, but I could see one that gives another spell slot of 1st level)
• Wizard: Magic Initiate (Wizard), Ritual Caster (We don't really need another one)

 

[Minigiant]

MCing is just too risky. If you don't know what you're doing you can cripple your character, but spending a feat to add a dash of flavour from another class is way easier and simple and you know it's about on par with your ASI. You're less likely to mess it up.

It's less risky and more that Multiclassing is only not a nerf in power if not planned. Classes are designed to be continued straight. The powers jumps are preprogrammed.

All Multiclassing does it disrupt that. So you have to go use Multiclassing to combine multiple lower tier features into a higher one.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Okay, list of classes, and their dip feats:

• Artificer: Artificer Initiate (Good feat, maybe a bit OP, some people want an infusion feat)
• Barbarian: There's nothing here. Maybe they could make a feat that gives something like Brutal Critical or Reckless Attack.
• Bard: Magic Initiate (Bard), maybe Practiced Expert and nothing else. (Some have recommended Bardic Inspiration. I think that could work, but would be overshadowed by Lucky)
• Cleric: Magic Initiate (Cleric), Ritual Caster, nothing else. (Some have recommended Channel Divinity. I think this would work, but they're going to have to decide how broad it is.)
• Druid: Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster, nothing else. (Some have recommended Wild Shape. To this, I disagree. Druids own wild shape, no one else can have it. Maybe a feat that makes you a shape changer)
• Fighter: Martial Adept, Fighting Initiate, the armor/shield feats could fit under here (We need nothing else, IMO.)
• Monk: Absolutely nothing (right, isn't there nothing? Maybe Tavern Brawler? Any thoughts on a monk feat? Give Ki or something, like MM Initiate?)
• Paladin: Nothing. (Maybe a possible Channel Divinity feat, or Lay on Hands. I'm indifferent to this)
• Ranger: Tracker (We don't really need anything else)
• Rogue: I guess you could count Skulker and Tandem Tactician, maybe Practiced Expert (Some have said a Sneak Attack feat, I don't see the need for it. Maybe a Cunning Action feat)
• Sorcerer: Magic Initiate (Sorcerer), Metamagic Initiate (I don't think we need anything else. Maybe some more planar feats, but those don't really belong to sorcerers)
• Warlock: Magic Initiate (Warlock), Eldritch Adept (We don't really need another one, but I could see one that gives another spell slot of 1st level)
• Wizard: Magic Initiate (Wizard), Ritual Caster (We don't really need another one)

One thing all of these feats seem to be doing is work both as a multi-classing option and an in-class boost: ie Metamagic Initiate is also good for sorcerers, not just for other classes who want to be more sorcerer-y.

For barbarian - I'd go with Brutal Critical (+1 die, so it stacks with half-orc and barbs). Maybe add that as a second bullet to Savage Attacker to make that feat worthwhile.

For monk, there's also an unarmed fighting style in the last UA (class feature variants) That plus the Fighting Initiate feat means there's a pretty good "red belt" feat, which does stack with martial arts.

Paladin probably shouldn't get a feat, unless it's a Magic Initiate variant, or maybe something like Angel-touched? I don't like a mini-oath, and there's already several 'get a little bit of healing' options.

For warlock, I can actually see the argument for a Hex Warrior feat if you assume "getting rid of dipping" is a goal of these. I'm drawing a blank on how to have it stack with the existing feature while still being enough that paladins aren't all forming pacts with mysterious weapon-shaped shadows, though. If we remove Hex Warrior form Hexblades it would be easy enough to just make that the feat.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In all my games since 3e, I've never played or run a group that didn't want feats. In my experience, most players think they're cool, and don't mind the extra power.

My groups always use feats, too, but my groups also rarely use humans.

However, the data from wotc and ddb so far has indicated that feats are taken by a minority of players, which is why I am curious what data points to nearly all players using feats.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

My groups always use feats, too, but my groups also rarely use humans.

However, the data from wotc and ddb so far has indicated that feats are taken by a minority of players, which is why I am curious what data points to nearly all players using feats.

Maybe it's because most games don't make it that far?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Maybe it's because most games don't make it that far?

To level 4?

I know the ddb data still showed low feat usage amongst post-level 4 characters made by users with access to feats.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

To level 4?

I know the ddb data still showed low feat usage amongst post-level 4 characters made by users with access to feats.

I mean, maybe players prefer increasing ability scores, and then taking feats at higher levels, but then the game ends? I don't know, there could be a combination of reasons. Everyone I've ever played with has said they like feats, and taken them at every opportunity.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I mean, maybe players prefer increasing ability scores, and then taking feats at higher levels, but then the game ends? I don't know, there could be a combination of reasons. Everyone I've ever played with has said they like feats, and taken them at every opportunity.

I mean, we can search for explanations like that, or maybe people like us like feats more than the average player does.

 

[Undrave]

Okay, list of classes, and their dip feats:

• Artificer: Artificer Initiate (Good feat, maybe a bit OP, some people want an infusion feat)
• Barbarian: There's nothing here. Maybe they could make a feat that gives something like Brutal Critical or Reckless Attack.
• Bard: Magic Initiate (Bard), maybe Practiced Expert and nothing else. (Some have recommended Bardic Inspiration. I think that could work, but would be overshadowed by Lucky)
• Cleric: Magic Initiate (Cleric), Ritual Caster, nothing else. (Some have recommended Channel Divinity. I think this would work, but they're going to have to decide how broad it is.)
• Druid: Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster, nothing else. (Some have recommended Wild Shape. To this, I disagree. Druids own wild shape, no one else can have it. Maybe a feat that makes you a shape changer)
• Fighter: Martial Adept, Fighting Initiate, the armor/shield feats could fit under here (We need nothing else, IMO.)
• Monk: Absolutely nothing (right, isn't there nothing? Maybe Tavern Brawler? Any thoughts on a monk feat? Give Ki or something, like MM Initiate?)
• Paladin: Nothing. (Maybe a possible Channel Divinity feat, or Lay on Hands. I'm indifferent to this)
• Ranger: Tracker (We don't really need anything else)
• Rogue: I guess you could count Skulker and Tandem Tactician, maybe Practiced Expert (Some have said a Sneak Attack feat, I don't see the need for it. Maybe a Cunning Action feat)
• Sorcerer: Magic Initiate (Sorcerer), Metamagic Initiate (I don't think we need anything else. Maybe some more planar feats, but those don't really belong to sorcerers)
• Warlock: Magic Initiate (Warlock), Eldritch Adept (We don't really need another one, but I could see one that gives another spell slot of 1st level)
• Wizard: Magic Initiate (Wizard), Ritual Caster (We don't really need another one)

I think the Barbarian, Monk and Paladin are really the ones without any feat representation. Magic Initiate can shoulder a lot of MC flavor (same with Ritual Caster).

For Barbarian you could even include 'durable' as a Barb featsince it boosts HP But I think something that improves Crits is probably the best bet, as you say. Or maybe a way to generate Temp HP on yourself? It would sorta simulate the damage reduction of Rage and stack with the Barbarian themselves to make them more solid?

There's always the option to combine Monk and Barbarian in an unarmored defense feat that lets you do the CON or WIS to AC (based on what stat you bump?)

But for Monk I could see you getting 2 ki points and the ability to use Dash, Disengage or Dodge as a bonus action by spending them. It would, in turn, give more Ki to the Monk. Maybe throw in an extra 5 feet of movement?

Paladin, I think a generic Channel Divinity would be good. Gives you an extra use that works for both Paladin and Cleric, and the option to spend your Channel Divinity on... I dunno, a 1 turn buff to your AC or something like that? Something that evokes the heavy plate armor of a paladin?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think the Barbarian, Monk and Paladin are really the ones without any feat representation. Magic Initiate can shoulder a lot of MC flavor (same with Ritual Caster).

For Barbarian you could even include 'durable' as a Barb featsince it boosts HP But I think something that improves Crits is probably the best bet, as you say. Or maybe a way to generate Temp HP on yourself? It would sorta simulate the damage reduction of Rage and stack with the Barbarian themselves to make them more solid?

There's always the option to combine Monk and Barbarian in an unarmored defense feat that lets you do the CON or WIS to AC (based on what stat you bump?)

But for Monk I could see you getting 2 ki points and the ability to use Dash, Disengage or Dodge as a bonus action by spending them. It would, in turn, give more Ki to the Monk. Maybe throw in an extra 5 feet of movement?

Paladin, I think a generic Channel Divinity would be good. Gives you an extra use that works for both Paladin and Cleric, and the option to spend your Channel Divinity on... I dunno, a 1 turn buff to your AC or something like that? Something that evokes the heavy plate armor of a paladin?

A feat that gives Unarmored defense, and +5 speed would work as both a Monk and Barbarian feat, tbh.

+1 dex, Str, or con?

 

[Undrave]

A feat that gives Unarmored defense, and +5 speed would work as both a Monk and Barbarian feat, tbh.

+1 dex, Str, or con?

I was thinking it would be +1 CON or +1 WIS and let you pick which one to add to your unarmored AC. Of course, WIS would be less popular...

Or you make two similar feat: the Barb one gives you a choice between DEX, STR or CON and add CON to your AC and +5 speed. The Monk one lets you choose between DEX and WIS (maybe a third one?) and in addtion to the WIS to AC and speed gives you +2 dmg to your unarmed attacks? If you're not a monk this gives you a stable 3 dmg when punching, but as a Monk it's a nice boost?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I was thinking it would be +1 CON or +1 WIS and let you pick which one to add to your unarmored AC. Of course, WIS would be less popular...

Or you make two similar feat: the Barb one gives you a choice between DEX, STR or CON and add CON to your AC and +5 speed. The Monk one lets you choose between DEX and WIS (maybe a third one?) and in addtion to the WIS to AC and speed gives you +2 dmg to your unarmed attacks? If you're not a monk this gives you a stable 3 dmg when punching, but as a Monk it's a nice boost?

What if it gave you an unarmed damage die, and upgrades you unarmed damage die or natural weapon damage die if you already have one?

 

[Undrave]

What if it gave you an unarmed damage die, and upgrades you unarmed damage die or natural weapon damage die if you already have one?

I guess... but it'd be easier if there was an established hierarchy, otherwise you'll have to explain what it means to 'go up 1 dice size' with probably listing all the upgrade possible like...

"Your unarmed strikes not inflict d4 damage, or d6 if it already inflicts d4, d8 if it already inflicts d6," and so forth and so on until d12 instead of d10.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean, maybe players prefer increasing ability scores, and then taking feats at higher levels, but then the game ends? I don't know, there could be a combination of reasons. Everyone I've ever played with has said they like feats, and taken them at every opportunity.

Same. It is true to my experience, however, that the advantages of ASI often leads people away from feats they would otherwise take. Which is why I support some system that gives everyone feat choice at level 1 (human variant gets two).

 

[Todd Roybark]

There is still the issue with diminishing the uniqueness of classes, particularly the Fighter

I view it from the opposite perspective, it is enabling maximizing individual character uniqueness, instead.

Fighters and Rogues as classes, have more ASI than other classes. In 1e & 2e, Fighters and Rogues, were the most common multi-class combo, partner.

I think one could argue most of these feats are geared to either simulating some early Spellcasting Ability, or are granting a boost to effects one can deal with Melee Weapon Attacks.

All of which help Fighters and Rogues.
The Fighting Initiate feat has this perquisite:
Prerequisite: Proficiency with a martial weapon

So any elf or dwarf character can represent their martial heritage. A dual wielding dwarven battle cleric can pick up the feat at 4th level if they so chose. No need to M/C.
No need to always play an AT or EK, if you want a Gish character.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

For Barbarian you could even include 'durable' as a Barb featsince it boosts HP But I think something that improves Crits is probably the best bet, as you say. Or maybe a way to generate Temp HP on yourself? It would sorta simulate the damage reduction of Rage and stack with the Barbarian themselves to make them more solid?

Yeah, I guess you could. I think the improved critical as a feat would probably be best, as we don't really have something like that yet, and it actually would help a lot of people, and fits in power with other feats. It would be popular among archers, barbarians, sword and board paladins and fighters, and cavaliers. If it is for any attack, that would help spellcasters as well.
Temporary hit points could also work, but I don't know how popular that kind of feat would be.

There's always the option to combine Monk and Barbarian in an unarmored defense feat that lets you do the CON or WIS to AC (based on what stat you bump?)

I think Unarmored Defense could work as a feat, but I would make it much less powerful than the Monk's and Barbarian's. I would have it give you a +1 to Dexterity, and your AC while wearing no armor (you can have a shield) is 12+Dexterity. This makes it so it increases your AC by 2, which seems to be on par with most other feats that increase AC.

But for Monk I could see you getting 2 ki points and the ability to use Dash, Disengage or Dodge as a bonus action by spending them. It would, in turn, give more Ki to the Monk. Maybe throw in an extra 5 feet of movement?

Yeah. Or maybe, an at will unarmed strike as a bonus action, one ki point, and Dash, Disengage, or Dodge as a bonus action taking a Ki point?

Paladin, I think a generic Channel Divinity would be good. Gives you an extra use that works for both Paladin and Cleric, and the option to spend your Channel Divinity on... I dunno, a 1 turn buff to your AC or something like that? Something that evokes the heavy plate armor of a paladin?

I don't think I'd do a bonus to AC, but would definitely give a Channel Divinity, with a bonus option for anyone who takes the feat. Probably something generic, maybe like a + to weapon attacks equal to Spellcasting modifier or something?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I mean, we can search for explanations like that, or maybe people like us like feats more than the average player does.

I said it could be a combination of factors, which it most likely is. Someone should start a poll.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I said it could be a combination of factors, which it most likely is. Someone should start a poll.

Unfortunately a poll here would be pretty useless, outside of telling us what "people who post on enworld" prefer, but it could be interesting.