UA Monks Introduces the Kensai and Tranquility Traditions

The Kensei was pretty much exactly how I expected/wanted it to be. With the exception of the bludgeoning damage. A d4 that doesn't scale? I hate d4s, and especially at higher levels it's hardly worth anything. Especially since as a monk, I could just use my bonus action to make an unarmed attack and use monk damage dice for that.

I've never been a fan of pacifist PCs, so the tranquil monk isn't my cup of tea. I understand others may feel differently though.

 

[hejtmane]

Its not the damage but the AC and using a dex based weapon to rage with. Dex wis con to AC. Combine it with lizardfolk AC of 13 and yeah.

Yes but Barbarians have natural ac waste of time on the 13.
Now if I was going to Multi-classing Kensai I take a 3 whopping levels. The rest would be fighter more asi then I focus on Dex and Wisdom and con 3rd.

Pretty darn simple variant Human GWM fighter dex build long term build 17 fighter 3 monk. Fighter gets more asi and by the time you hit 14 you have 3 attacks with the 2 handed weapon and you got pummel to give you a small boost along with GWF to give you roughly and extra dpr an attack. Natural ac easy to boost extra asi dex for ac and attack extra HP.

Flexibility want a crit based go champion want more control damage Battle Master want more survival ability go EK for Shield, Blurr and Absorb Elements (int is a dump stat) there you go use your reactions for the win

 

[Thurmas]

No you dont. You use the Monk damage die for your Kensai weapon, but it doesnt become a Monk weapon.

So while you use your Kensai weapon, you lose access to your martial arts class feature.

The instant you use your Kensai weapon, you lose your bonus action martial arts attack, your damage dice when unarmed or using other monk weapons drops to 1 (or the base damage of the weapon) and you have to use Strength for these attacks.

The only exception is if you choose the Shortsword as your kensai weapon. The shortsword is also a monk weapon, so you get to retain your martial arts ability as long as you use it.

A Kensai that picks a longsword (katana) as his Kensai weapon, and wields it, loses access to martial arts for as long as he does so.

I don't think we're actually saying different things? I agree with you on all of that. The only ability that is changed for being a Kensei Tradition is the third martial arts ability. You lose that. It also affects Flurry of Blows, as we both said. The rest of the monk martial arts stays the same because the UA grants them both again, to Kensai weapons in addition to Monk weapons.

From the UA: "Whenever you wield a Kensei weapon, you choose whether to use Dexterity or Strength for the attack and damage rolls of the weapon, and you choose whether to use your Martial Arts damage die in place of the weapon’s damage die."

So I think we are just repeating what each of us is already saying.

 

[hejtmane]

No you dont. You use the Monk damage die for your Kensai weapon, but it doesnt become a Monk weapon.

So while you use your Kensai weapon, you lose access to your martial arts class feature.

The instant you use your Kensai weapon, you lose your bonus action martial arts attack, your damage dice when unarmed or using other monk weapons drops to 1 (or the base damage of the weapon) and you have to use Strength for these attacks.

The only exception is if you choose the Shortsword as your kensai weapon. The shortsword is also a monk weapon, so you get to retain your martial arts ability as long as you use it.

A Kensai that picks a longsword (katana) as his Kensai weapon, and wields it, loses access to martial arts for as long as he does so.

That is just a waste of time might as while multi class 3 levels fighter or ranger and go way of the hand or long death and still use the short sword + all your martial arts. Then for two attacks you get duelist +2 plus 4 superiority dice, second wind and action surge all on short rest or +2 damage + 1d8 for colossal or extra attack on multi hoard breaker and 3 spells on long rest.

 

[Dualazi]

Pretty disappointed with this offering, which is a bummer since the fighter (barring the arcane archer) was pretty great on the whole.

The Kensei seems both incredibly bland, and also incredibly dependent on a bunch of RAW/RAI distinctions, which is always a huge recipe for trouble. They badly need to re-wrod and clarify their intent on this, because it seems to be wobbling between "abuse case" and "useless", which is also pulling the discussion away from the abilities themselves. Said abilities are also super boring, in my opinion, as they really just amount to generic accuracy increases across the board. The level 6 feature is particularly bad, double prof once per short rest, on a single weapon attack? Garbage. Sharpen the blade at least lasts for a full minute, and didn't one of the ranger re-works have a similar re-roll feature for misses?

I would really like this one to get a full re-do with uses for ki that actually represent supreme (magical) weapon wielding. There's so little creativity in this offering and it disappoints me greatly.

Tranquil monk is more creative on the other hand, but also might be the most niche subclass we've been shown so far. The features seem to work well enough, but the whole idea of nonviolence kind of clashes with the rest of the class' combat focus. Might be cool, but this is one archetype that I would actually be cool with being some form of prestige class/paragon path.

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

I love the flexibility of the monk base class - in movement, per round options etc.

Love the flexibility the Kensai offers for character concepts - Lance wielding squire, bow (?) using nomad stalker, great-sword using mystic and so on...

But the PoT is my favourite. A 'diplomancer' type character, that can still throw a punch or two if needs. Striking to heal a target to full then taking it out of the fight for 10 rounds is very interesting - and brings fightiness and peace together. Level 17 ability is simply beautiful. Peace and calm people - enforced with extreme prejudice!

Overall, two classes that offer a host of character options (in terms of functional mechanics rather than fluff). Good stuff.

 

[Flamestrike]

I don't think we're actually saying different things? I agree with you on all of that. The only ability that is changed for being a Kensei Tradition is the third martial arts ability.

No its not the only thing that changes.

When a Kensai is using his weapon (unless its a shortsword) he loses access to martial arts. Full stop.

He doesnt get the increased damage, he loses the bonus action attack and he doesnt get the option of Dex to hit and damage. He loses the entire class feature.

A Kensai 15 who uses the attack action makes two attacks (he has the extra attack class feature) as an action.

If he uses [Jian/ longsword] and [Unarmed strike] the unarmed strike deals 1+Str damage, and uses Str to hit. He cant use his bonus action to make a third unarmed strike this turn.

He could also use flurry of blows on his turn, but each of the two attacks only deals 1+Str damage, and relies on Str to hit.

From the UA: "Whenever you wield a Kensei weapon, you choose whether to use Dexterity or Strength for the attack and damage rolls of the weapon, and you choose whether to use your Martial Arts damage die in place of the weapon’s damage die."

I know. But the ability doesnt turn the Kensai weapon into a Monk weapon. And if you are weilding a weapon other than a Monk weapon you lose access to the martial arts class feature. '

Your unarmed damage drops to 1+Str damage, and you have to use Strength to hit. You cant use your bonus action to make a third unarmed strike this turn.

So a Jian/ Katana using Kensai becomes no better than a Commoner at martial arts the instant he starts weilding his Jian/ Katana.

 

[Flamestrike]

Look:

At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property.

You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren't wearing armor or wielding a shield:

You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. For example, if you take the Attack action and attack with a quarterstaff, you can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, assuming you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn.

UA:

UA: "Whenever you wield a Kensei weapon, you choose whether to use Dexterity or Strength for the attack and damage rolls of the weapon, and you choose whether to use your Martial Arts damage die in place of the weapon’s damage die."

The Kensai ability doesnt make Kensai weapons monk weapons. So you lose access to your martial arts class feature as soon as you pick up and use your Kensai weapon (your unarmed damage drops to 1+Str, your damage with non Kensai Monk weapons drops to base damage die, you're forced to use Str instead of Dex for unarmed attacks adn attacks with non Kensai monk weapons, and you cant take your bonus action attack anymore).

Id like to [slash with Jian/ Katana] and [kick] Lu Mi Bi - Crouching tiger Hidden dragon style.

I cant do that with this class.

 

[pemerton]

For a game that in many ways aims at simplicity, 5e seems to make a really big deal of weapon-handedness, reloading, wielding vs holding vs carrying, etc.

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION], I don't think Thurmas disagrees with you:

I agree with you on all of that. The only ability that is changed for being a Kensei Tradition is the third martial arts ability. You lose that. It also affects Flurry of Blows, as we both said. The rest of the monk martial arts stays the same because the UA grants them both again, to Kensai weapons in addition to Monk weapons.

Thurmas recognises that, in wielding a non-monk kensei weapon, you lose the ability to make a bonus unarmed attack. And Thurmas recognises that wielding a non-monk kensei weapon downgrades FoB.

It just seems that, unlike you, Thurmas doesn't mind about these things, and is happy to have the other benefits of the Martial Arts feature (use DEX rather than STR, sub the Martial Arts die for the damage die listed on the equipment table) in respect of kensei weapons.

 

[Flamestrike]

[MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION], I don't think Thurmas disagrees with you:

Thurmas recognises that, in wielding a non-monk kensei weapon, you lose the ability to make a bonus unarmed attack. And Thurmas recognises that wielding a non-monk kensei weapon downgrades FoB.

It just seems that, unlike you, Thurmas doesn't mind about these things, and is happy to have the other benefits of the Martial Arts feature (use DEX rather than STR, sub the Martial Arts die for the damage die listed on the equipment table) in respect of kensei weapons.

You dont have a problem with your martial arts being switched off the instant your Wuxia weapon master picks up a Jian, or your Kensai picks up his Katana?

A 20th level Jian/ Katana using Kensai with Dex 20 who dumped Str to 8 deals 0 damage unarmed on any round he attacks with his sword.

[Attack] Sword/ Kick + [flurry] Kick/ Kick deals - [1d10, Dex to hit and damage]+ 0 + 0 + 0

It also costs him 1 point of Ki to do it.