D&D (2024) UA Ranger (Playtest 6)

[codo]

My point is that WOTC is trying to update the ranger without creating anything despite the fact that they know they screwed up the initial ranger design.

Rather than:

1. diving into the past history of the ranger of previous editions and recreating updated versions of those iconic features
2. look into the analogs of rangers of other high magic fantasy games and converting those abolities
3. think about the ranger parallels in modern media and adapting those elements

They are just reusing what they made in2024 and Tasha's. The ranger had ranged ranged weapon buff spells in older editions. In many video and board games, ranger characters have magic arrows. And in both rangers have a mystical affinity to animals, plants, and earth.

But "Conjure Barrage spell to kill faceless mooks" for every ranger.

This is not a new edition of the game, it is just a revision. Tasha's ranger actually rates pretty high. Why shouldn't they reuse large parts from Tasha's. They are not just making changes just for change sake. They highly value backwards compatibility. They have been iterating on the ranger for years already, and with Tasha's they finally have a version the most players are happy with. Why should they star from scratch and come up with a completely new design?

I know there are people who want 1D&D to be a completely new game, but from the very start of the playtest the designers have been stating over and over that that it will not be a new edition of the game. It will still be 5e, just un updated and revised version.

 

[Minigiant]

This is not a new edition of the game, it is just a revision. Tasha's ranger actually rates pretty high. Why shouldn't they reuse large parts from Tasha's. They are not just making changes just for change sake. They highly value backwards compatibility. They have been iterating on the ranger for years already, and with Tasha's they finally have a version the most players are happy with. Why should they star from scratch and come up with a completely new design?

I know there are people who want 1D&D to be a completely new game, but from the very start of the playtest the designers have been stating over and over that that it will not be a new edition of the game. It will still be 5e, just un updated and revised version.

The Tasha's Ranger was a ranger beholden to the 2014 Rangers paradigm.

It has the most changes because it didn't match how people expected to play the ranger or D&D as a whole.

So when given the chance to change the classes while not locked into the design of the past and do one to one swaps...why not do it?

Especially if they are are willing to give Wizard and Sorcerer 5 new spells and fundamentally alter the backbone of the Warlock and Bard.

But it is just.a revision but we are thinking about giving Bard access to every non-exclusive spell.

 

[codo]

Barrage did get a damage boost compared to its 2014 incarnation. And it is about where I would want it. 5d8 = 22.5, friendly fire means you can't hit allies, and the area of effect is HUGE. Compared to Fireball which is 28, smaller area, and will hit friendlies.

It could go up ti 6d8 and not be overpowered, but with the friendly fire I'm okay with a little less damage.

The thing is rangers don't get the conjure spells until high level, and they can only cast a couple a day. I want them to be Awesome! I want them to do at least as much damage as a fire, and not hit allies. When a ranger drops a conjure spell it should be a big deal. I want them to do as much damage as a fireball and not have them effect allies. By the time a ranger is able to cast conjure barrage the wizard is already throwing level 5 fireballs.

The fact that both spells are class specific spells means that they can be more powerful then other spells of the same level. The extra power of the spells can come out of the class power budget. I want Conjure Barrage to do 5d10 and Conjure Volley 8d10. Now that there is no way for other character to get class specific spells, you don't need to worry if the are overpowered if a character of another class gets them somehow.

If it helps, just imagine the spells just did their normal damage, but rangers had a class ability that let them upgrade the damage of conjure spells from d8s to d10s. It is literally the same thing, just less over head and potential for confusion.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The thing is rangers don't get the conjure spells until high level, and they can only cast a couple a day. I want them to be Awesome! I want them to do at least as much damage as a fire, and not hit allies. When a ranger drops a conjure spell it should be a big deal. I want them to do as much damage as a fireball and not have them effect allies. By the time a ranger is able to cast conjure barrage the wizard is already throwing level 5 fireballs.

The fact that both spells are class specific spells means that they can be more powerful then other spells of the same level. The extra power of the spells can come out of the class power budget. I want Conjure Barrage to do 5d10 and Conjure Volley 8d10. Now that there is no way for other character to get class specific spells, you don't need to worry if the are overpowered if a character of another class gets them somehow.

If it helps, just imagine the spells just did their normal damage, but rangers had a class ability that let them upgrade the damage of conjure spells from d8s to d10s. It is literally the same thing, just less over head and potential for confusion.

I agree with the inclination, and since they are being listed as ranger specific it might work. But not everyone is cool with that.

 

[Minigiant]

The thing is rangers don't get the conjure spells until high level, and they can only cast a couple a day. I want them to be Awesome! I want them to do at least as much damage as a fire, and not hit allies. When a ranger drops a conjure spell it should be a big deal. I want them to do as much damage as a fireball and not have them effect allies. By the time a ranger is able to cast conjure barrage the wizard is already throwing level 5 fireballs.

The fact that both spells are class specific spells means that they can be more powerful then other spells of the same level. The extra power of the spells can come out of the class power budget. I want Conjure Barrage to do 5d10 and Conjure Volley 8d10. Now that there is no way for other character to get class specific spells, you don't need to worry if the are overpowered if a character of another class gets them somehow.

If it helps, just imagine the spells just did their normal damage, but rangers had a class ability that let them upgrade the damage of conjure spells from d8s to d10s. It is literally the same thing, just less over head and potential for confusion.

This goes to the point of spells for full casters, half casters, and third casters.

For a Full Caster,their spells are their tools within a serious encounter. At level 9, a full caster has 4/3/3/3/1 for slots. Whereas a half caster at level9 have 4/3/2. A Wizard9 would have 7 spells slots of 3rd or higher. The Ranger9 only have 2. This allows a wizard to cast powerful spell every encounter if they want. A Ranger can only do it twice. And that's if the 3rd level spells scaled. But spells doesn't autoscale in 5e. Conjure Barrage is 2 spell levels and 9 character level outdated at level 9. Conjure Volly is 4 and 8.

This is why half casters tended to use exclusive, stackable, "abuseable", or nonnumerical spells in D&D history.

If Conjure Barrage/Volley had the power of a 5th/9th level spell, one could stomach forcing their flavor on all rangers..
If they were weak but more iconic, okay.
If they weren't so situational, fine.

But I think Tasha's Primeval Awareness had a better list of iconic Ranger effects: Speak w/ Animals, Beast Sense, Speak w/ Plants, Loctate Creature, Commune with Nature. Going for numerical combat spells is threading flavor, power, and applicability.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

My point is that WOTC is trying to update the ranger without creating anything despite the fact that they know they screwed up the initial ranger design.

Rather than:

1. diving into the past history of the ranger of previous editions and recreating updated versions of those iconic features
2. look into the analogs of rangers of other high magic fantasy games and converting those abolities
3. think about the ranger parallels in modern media and adapting those elements

They are just reusing what they made in2024 and Tasha's. The ranger had ranged ranged weapon buff spells in older editions. In many video and board games, ranger characters have magic arrows. And in both rangers have a mystical affinity to animals, plants, and earth.

But "Conjure Barrage spell to kill faceless mooks" for every ranger.

This is a non-problem.

The ranger still has magic arrow attack spells.

 

[Kobold Stew]

But it is just.a revision but we are thinking about giving Bard access to every non-exclusive spell.

...at level 10, past when most people play the game.

 

[mellored]

But it is just.a revision but we are thinking about giving Bard access to every non-exclusive spell.

I made the suggestion a while ago to make them half casters, but have all the spells. Including a 1/day "of course I prepared that".

Probably too much of a change for this revision, but maybe for 6e.

 

[mellored]

Also I don't have a problem with rangers being mostly range.. with melee being more of a backup option.

 

[Minigiant]

This is a non-problem.

The ranger still has magic arrow attack spells.

The problem is most of the magic arrow spells stink but 2 are still being forced upon every version of the class over more iconic spells..

...at level 10, past when most people play the game.

And?

Does that mean that everything over level 9 should be allowed to be unbalanced?

I made the suggestion a while ago to make them half casters, but have all the spells. Including a 1/day "of course I prepared that".

Probably too much of a change for this revision, but maybe for 6e.

Hell, if "You can prepare any Arcane, Divine, or Primal spell" is allowed is allowed in a revision, giving a bard "1/day prepare any spell 5th or lower you didn't prepare" is too.

My point is that if dozens of spells can be added to Bards, Warlocks can get whole new way to cast magic, and Wizards can modify and create spells in the spellbook in a revision then

1. Conjure Barrage should deal about the same damage as 5th level cone spell. Cone Of Cold deal 8d8. Conjure Barrage should deal slightly less.
2. Lighting Arrow should deal about the same as CoC.
3. Conjure Volley should deal about the same damage as a 8th level or 9th level spell.
4. Ranger should have more animal and plant based spells. Especially exclusive ones. Like summoning a pack of hounds to sniff tracks or instantly crafting magic weapons out of wood and vine.

If WOTC openly admitsthat they screwed up the design of the 2014 ranger and monk, that should allow them free rein to inject magic changes in the classes in a revision during a playtest.