As I said previously,
You've still not shown anything wrong or imbalancing with the Bard having spell lists open up.
D&D (2024) UA Ranger (Playtest 6)
My comments were on power and level of change in a revision.
You stated none of matters because most people don't play those level or for long.
Is it okay to give a ranger a low power feature and the bard a high power feature at high levels just because few play those level?
You stated level of power, balance, change or anything doesn't matter because it happened at level 10 and most groups don't get to level 10.
I would check the post. I corrected your misleading claim about a single ability.
It might be, depending on how the one feature matches with the rest of what's offered. As I have said, CB might be underpowered; that possibility, though, can't be assessed with a comparison with a single feature in one other class. That's cherry-picking your evidence, and then (in this case) presenting a misleading and overstated version of what the supposedly stronger feature is.
I don't think I did. It's post 217 in this thread. I was trying to nuance your claim, and I didn't point out all the ways you were misrepresenting the bard ability when I did so.
Hope this helps clarify.
My comment was a response to another poster that the Ranger can't be changed much because this is a revision.
My response was that WOTC was willing to make major changes in other classes like Bard, Sorcerer, and Wizard. I didn't even mention the big additions to Rogue or Druid.
Instead every other class is seeming to get new big stuff in this revision. Whereas the ranger is getting remade Tasha's stuff or bonus niche spells known.
The bard doesn't gain 2 spells from any list. The bard gains 1 spell from any list and may choose (or not choose) to replace another spell. Giving up a spell one list for a spell on another list is a lateral trade, not a gain. The only thing the bard is gaining at 10th level is adding 1 spell to the spells prepared. It can come from any list but it's still only 1 spell gained at 10th level. At that point it's the bard who has the fixed spell while the ranger can swap spells. If, by your argument, a fixed spell is worse then the ranger has the better ability.
A bard casting spells scales better at spell casting because bards use the same spell progression as clerics, druids, sorcerers, and wizards. Any one of those classes casts spells better than rangers. So do warlocks and paladins. Bards don't cast as well as clerics, druids, sorcerers, and wizards because of the skill benefits. Rangers don't cast as well as warlocks or paladins because of the skill benefits.
Magical secrets following spells know progression give one at levels 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, and 20. It's only 8 spells gained at all from level 10 on. Many of those secrets are still like to come from the primary spell list because they fit in with the original them of the character. If a player wanted most of the spells to come from another list then the player would have selected that other list at 1st level.
A ranger gains access to 45 spells of 3rd through 5th level over the same level range because of the ability to swap one out on a long rest.
Conjure barrage is a 3rd level spell. 5d8 force damage vs 8d6 fire damage is less damage, but it's force damage and a 60' cone is a much larger AoE than fireball. The size of the AoE, damage, and damage type are suitable for a 3rd level spell.
Spells are ranked by spell level, not class level. That's conflating two different things. Bringing up the level of the ranger ability does not support the argument.
If conjure barrage is bad because it uses slots, then so is magical secrets because they use slots. Magical secrets doesn't add an extra resource. The only thing magical secrets does is give a broader initial selection ceases to exist in play once it's been made.
Tireless does grant an extra resource, and if the players aren't playing by the rules given with exhaustion then it doesn't make sense to complain about the rules impacted by the decision of those players. "We aren't playing by the rules and now we're mad because other rules don't cater to our choice"? WotC developers cannot develop around how players ignore the rules they provided.
The idea that fireball is OP because of the area and number of targets total damage argument people use when talking about casters vs melees applies here too. Hunter's mark and combat options can be good for smaller numbers of opponents but there's no way they do as much damage within the same action economy to many targets. The same is true for conjure animals. It doesn't hurt the ranger to add an AoE like
Here's what a comparative list might look like:
Bard 10
1st-level: detect magic, speak with animals, thunderwave, healing word, faerie fire
2nd-level: lesser restoration, enhance ability, augury
3rd-level: mass healing word, dispel magic, conjure animals
4th-level: polymorph, freedom of movement
5th-level: greater restoration
Ranger 10
1st-level: hunter's mark, detect magic, speak with animals, cure wounds, goodberry
2nd-level: lesser restoration, spike growth, darkvision, spike growth
3rd-level: conjure barrage, conjure animals
Adding 1 more spell from another list and trading one off doesn't mean much. How is it powerful? Which spells would you trade on either list?
Adding more spells to a full caster others more versatility to go focus on one role such as being a better blaster, healer or face. Or allowing the bard to spread out into better options in other lists.
Whereas the ranger is given an option they would likely never take unless it was a free choice because full casters have better AOE options that don't eat into their crucial spell slots.
For example you've created a Bard with few damage spells. Magical Secrets allows a Bard to not only swap in Primal attack spells but Arcane and Divine ones as well like Fireball or Spirit Guardians. Or swap in utility like Charms.
Whereas Conjure Barrage competes with Upcasted Hunters Mark and Conjure Animals. Conjure Animals being a spell that a Bard can cast more often.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Today I swarmed my player characters with needle and twig blights. They were level 5, to be fair, but conjure barrage would have helped them tremendeously there. The little damage added up. And our paladin lamented that he has not a single area damage spell. And the necklace of fireballs could not be used, because of the chaotic situation. (Our evoker was out of fireballs already...)
So having such a spell as a bonus is really nice.
So having such a spell as a bonus is really nice.
Chaosmancer
Legend
I could be misreading it, but I don't think Minigiant is saying the spell can't be nice in the right circumstances.
I think they are more frustrated that WoTC is trying to make those two spells iconic and exclusive for the Ranger, and they feel there are more iconic and more generally useful spells that could be made mandatory for all Rangers to have.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Ok. Then I read it wrong.
I look at it differently. I think it is a nice bonus. I wished, the primal spells from tashas should be always prepared on top. So it is one of the iconic spells, not the only one.
What I really wish so would be that the ranger always has the ability to cast any exploration ritual spell as ritual.
For me, casting alarm, speak with animals, animal friendship, maybe even some secure shelter is what makes the ranger rangery.
You're still over-selling magical secrets quite a bit. If the bard could swap spells daily like other spell casters that would be a different story, but the requirement to level up in order to swap spells restricts that very significantly. The character isn't likely going to have fireball and spirit guardians and conjure animals.
Competing with an upcast hunter's mark or conjure animals is the same opportunity cost every spell caster has with every spell they cast. Singling out the spell slot for those singe spells doesn't make any sense because every single concentration spell competes with hunter's mark at all levels. All spell casters cast spells based on the situation.
If the argument is that conjure barrage and conjure volley are poor choices for iconic spells forced on the ranger then that's something I can agree with. When someone says "ranger" those don't fall into what I imagine.
It was bringing up bards as somehow significant that was weird.
Clerics can cast almost any divine spell with divine intervention up to 5th level for a lot of versatility compared to a bard that picks up a spell that they can only change by leveling up. That cleric can access any spell on the cleric list with a long rest and has access to 10 more spells prepped that fall into better blaster / better CC categories by domain. And they have access to better armor than bards or rangers. But you felt the need to call out the bard for that one spell gained for some reason.
Druids cast almost any spell a ranger can and more often as you brought up against bard, and they gain access to circle spells, and they can swap those spells better on a long rest, and they add a subclass feature that bards don't get and rangers do. Druids also access any spell on the spell list when bards have access to a few known and those circle spells gained also add to the options like domain spells. Again, you felt the need to call out bards for access to a spell.
Wizards gain a subclass ability and create spell at those levels. They can also swap out to any spell in their book and have greater access to their primary spell list than bards do with those additions to the book. They also have greater access to spells because they don't need to prepare rituals.
Bringing up magical secrets doesn't make much sense. Bards do not have access to the full spell list they chose like clerics, druids, or wizards. They have access to the spells they selected from within those lists. Clerics, druids, and wizards all have access to more spells and can easily change the spell to which they have access. Magical secrets doesn't change that. Magical secrets broadens the availability from which to choose but the bard is still limited to spells actually selected and will never have access to any full list in game play. They certainly don't have that broad range domain spells or circle spells provide. The only benefit is a broad range of a few choices in high level spells, and that's going to be a few spells while those other classes can access all the spells on their list via rest; ie more actual spells available.
Most classes, including rangers, gain a subclass ability in the level range you were bringing up. Bards and clerics do not. Let's compare an 11th level bard to an 11th level ranger.
Our bard is trying to be like the ranger for the purposes of this discussion because "bards make better rangers than rangers" comes up. Valor college for the weapon proficiencies and armor training.
The bard takes the primal spell list. All the sample backgrounds suck for this style of bard so a custom background is required. Wood Elf for both.
(insert background name here -- maybe "hippie treehugger")
Ability Scores: +2 CHA, +1 DEX
Skill Proficiencies: survival, nature
Tool Proficiency: herbalism kit
Language: Sylvan
Feat: tough
Racial abilities: darkvision 60', elven lineage, fey ancestry, keen senses, trance
Skill proficiencies: perception (expertise), survival (expertise), nature (expertise), stealth (expertise), athletics, persuasion
Skill bonuses: athletics (+5); acrobatics (+5), sleight of hand (+5), stealth (+11); arcana (+1), history (+1), investigation (+1), nature (+7), religion (+1); animal handling (+2), insight (+2), medicine (+2), perception (+8), survival (+8); deception (+7), intimidation (+7), performance (+7), persuasion (+9)
AC: 18 (breastplate, shield, DEX bonus)
hp: 102
Ability Scores (default spread)
STR: 13 (+1 save)
DEX: 16 (+7 save)
CON: 14 (+2 save)
INT: 8 (-1 save)
WIS: 10
CHA: 20 (+9 save)
Spells
level 0: druidcraft, shillelagh, guidance, resistance, thunderclap
level 1: longstrider, detect magic, healing word, goodberry, speak with animals
level 2: pass without trace, lesser restoration, suggestion, alter self
level 3: conjure animals, mass healing word, dispel magic, revivify
level 4: polymorph, conjure woodland being
level 5: greater restoration, scrying
level 6: heal
What you seem to be missing is that there are only so many spells for fitting into the theme or role in the first place. Slowly deviating outside of the original spell list doesn't have the room within the spells prepared on the bard to do much just by giving more choices at higher levels. This sample list did swap in a couple of spells on what's essentially a healing (melee) bard but the healing bard still needed the higher level healing spells that are already on the main list because the bard will match the main list to the role or theme initially. Any other spell that might be chosen gives something up from this list. Two lower level primal spells were already swapped in from the arcane list so the build would be giving up greater restoration, scrying, or heal for spells from a different list.
That bard would also have 5 bardic inspiration d10's per short rest. Useful and this looks like an interesting build for me to play but there's nothing I see that's powerful in adding a couple of spells that other classes can cast just as well if not better.
Our ranger can start with something iconic like the guide background. Same wood elf for a direct comparison. I was flip flopping on subclass because they all have clear advantages and went with fey wanderer for the example because it's an example of adding spell lists like we see with clerics, druids, and paladins.
Ability Scores: +2 WIS, +1 DEX
Skill Proficiencies: stealth, survival
Tool Proficiency: cartographer's tools
Language: Giant
Feat: magic initiate (primal)
Racial abilities: darkvision 60', elven lineage, fey ancestry, keen senses, trance
Skill proficiencies: perception (expertise), survival, nature, stealth (expertise), athletics, investigation, persuasion
Skill bonuses: athletics (+5); acrobatics (+3), sleight of hand (+3), stealth (+11); arcana, history, investigation (+4), nature (+9), religion; animal handling (+5), insight (+5), medicine (+5), perception (+13), survival (+9); deception (+4), intimidation (+4), performance (+4), persuasion (+8)
Terrains: coast, forest, grassland, mountains
Weapon Mastery: club, longbow
Fighting Style: dueling
AC: 18 (breastplate, shield, DEX bonus)
hp: 92
thp (tireless): ~47.5
Ability Scores (default spread)
STR: 13 (+5 save)
DEX: 16 (+7 save)
CON: 14 (+2 save)
INT: 10
WIS: 20 (+5 save)
CHA: 8 (-1 save)
Spells
level 0: druidcraft, shillelagh, guidance
level 1: longstrider, detect magic, hunter's mark, charm person, healing word, goodberry, speak with animals, ensnaring strike, thunderwave
level 2: pass without trace, misty step, lesser restoration, enhance ability
level 3: conjure barrage, dispel magic, conjure animals, mass healing word
level 4: conjure woodland being
Both examples wear medium armor, use shields, have extra attack, and can use the same weapons. The bard uses the subclass and 1st level feat to lean into a melee build. The difference is the ranger (who used the subclass and 1st level feat to lean into magic) inflicts substantially more damage with the fighting style and bonus psychic damage from the subclass.
The "bards can add shield for big AC" doesn't work because the bard has to give something up for it and any class can use the background feat to do the same thing. This ranger would have just needed to use a different magic initiate feat to pick up the shield spell. But unlike the bard who would eat through spell slots using it, the ranger could use it and still have those free hunter's mark castings.
The ranger is also has better movement speed while simultaneously slowing targets down with weapon mastery for harrying or kiting.
Both builds are stealthy, but the ranger has better perception because of the difference in primary ability scores. The ranger doesn't lose out as a party face because the subclass grants WIS bonus to CHA checks and the charm person spell, and the ranger can add advantage with enhance ability. I would argue the ranger is the better party face. The bard can become better, but without easy access to swapping spells like the ranger has that requires giving something else up.
That ranger can nuke AoE damage too. Combat, face, stealth, healing, AoE. That was the claim for the bard but I can build that on a ranger.
Both builds have 18 prepared spells. The bard has more cantrips but the ranger can swap out mass healing word for nondetection or call lightning. The bard's only advantage in the versatility part with spells is the earlier access to higher level spells, and those are very limited in slots.
The bard can cast 4 1st level spells, and longstrider once for free. The ranger can cast 4 1st level spells, longstrider once for free, detect magic not as a ritual once for free, and hunter's mark 5 times for free. The bard can cast 3 2nd level spells and pass without trace once for free. The ranger can do the same thing. Both can cast 3 3rd level spells.
Fey wanderer grants conjure woodland being earlier than the spell progression allows, gives a free casting, and adds a casting version that doesn't require concentration. You've brought up conjure animals multiple times but that spell costs concentration so it's doesn't work well with hunter's mark. This is why I pointed out that rangers add a subclass feature bards do not. A subclass addition is a feature of the class progression too, and those can be good abilities.
In higher levels this ranger can use those 3rd level slots for an 8 hour hunter's mark (or use all the free ones) and conjure animals is less useful than conjure woodland being because of the concentration so are are slots available for conjure barrage or some other spell.
Circling back, a spell or two or three from outside the primary spell list doesn't do what you claim as well as lists of spells acquired earlier on other classes.
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