Unarmed Spring Attack?

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, I'd say that by that argument, grapple (and for that matter unarmed strike) is explicitly not a weapon. There would be no need to say "You can also choose..." if grapple were a weapon.

But we know that unarmed strike is a weapon, since it's on the table and in the text in the weapons section. So being in the 'also choose' sentence isn't a disqualification.

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

Sure.

Actually, I'd say that by that argument, grapple (and for that matter unarmed strike) is explicitly not a weapon. There would be no need to say "You can also choose..." if grapple were a weapon.

Do the rules ever have redundant passages that exist solely to clarify the available options?

Daniel

 

[Infiniti2000]

Do the rules ever have redundant passages that exist solely to clarify the available options?

Yes, but the word "also" is confusing, isn't it? What other, similar redundant clarifications use that? The "also" surely refers to 'weapon' so that would mean that the things listed are not weapons. If they were already known to be weapons, then it wouldn't even be necessary to list them, or it wouldn't be necessary to use the word "also".

The inclusion of unarmed strike just makes it really bad because that's clearly identified as a weapon. It's arguable, yes, but this particular quote does not make a good argument for the interpretation that 'grapple' (or other unarmed attacks) are 'weapons'.

 

[Xanterith]

In the grapple to get the guy away from the cube example above, you still would provoke an AoO from the cube -

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

Since you are "attacking" the helpless PC, the cube can still womp on you.

That being said, I still can't see how the whole grapple thing is at all relevant. If you did use it on an enemy, you can't exactly "spring" away from them if you are grappled, which is the big advantage of spring attack, and the movement that will generally invoke the AoO unless the opponent has reach (another good use for spring attack). Also, it specifically says you have to move before and after the attack, and not having a book handy, I don't know what the rules are for moving with an opponent grappled, but I imagine they are not really in the attackers favor and probably not easy. I would say trip, disarm, unarmed strike are all valid, and I would also consider a held touch attack as a "weapon" as well for purpose of this ability.

edit: Form the grappling section:

Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.

Grappling and Spring Attack are immpossible to use together as the movement while grappled requires a standard action, as does the attack. Can't do two standard actions in a round, and you need to move after the grapple to use spring attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Grappling and Spring Attack are immpossible to use together as the movement while grappled requires a standard action, as does the attack. Can't do two standard actions in a round, and you need to move after the grapple to use spring attack.

Well, as I noted above, there's two potential answers to that.

1. The movement into the opponent's square occurs after the attack roll. I personally wouldn't consider this valid, since it explicitly doesn't count as part of your movement for the round, but there's room to argue it.

2. You could move after the grapple (after the damage is dealt) by failing to carry out step 4 to maintain the grapple.

-Hyp.

 

[FCWesel]

Hmm...

Unarmed Attacks are a weapon. I punch you in the face, my weapon is my fist. ( Rigg's was a Lethal Weapon. )

As for Spring Attack, cannot Grapple/Spring Attack due to RAW.
(1) Cannot Spring Attack because once you are grappled, you cannot move a opponent because you have to perform a Standard Action, which you can't do multiple of, since the Grapple was the Standard Action of the Round. You need a new Standard Action and a Roll to Move in a Grapple.



THAT SAID...

This wasn't a REAL Grapple. This seems more to the point of Running Past and Pushing/Tackle/grab out of the way. I would have allowed this WITHOUT a second's hesitation because...it is heroic and cool and valiant and ... Heroic! The ONLY rule that needs to be followed in this or any other game is ignore any rule to have fun!

What this really should have been was a BULL RUSH (so no Spring Attack would be needed). As he is hitting the Helpless (not Prone) PC and moving him away. I just would have given the Rushing Opponent either no STR resistance roll or a -5 to a "Take 10" roll.


In any event, I would have given the Cube a AoO, unless the attacker had a Improved version that negated some types of AoO possibilities. If it was something that had multiple AoO's I would have given it possibly TWO (okay, maybe three). One for entering threatened zone, one for grabbing the helpless dude and one for running out/away from threatened zone.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Unarmed Attacks are a weapon. I punch you in the face, my weapon is my fist.

That's an unarmed strike, a specific type of unarmed attack. In no way does that example prove that unarmed attacks in general are weapons.

 

[Pielorinho]

I don't find the word "also" to be confusing; I read it as an author's attempt to clarify, a mostly superfluous adverb, not as a word especially laden with meaning.

As for the action described, I would allow it, because it is awesome. It's a great image, it can be justified within the rules, allowing it isn't going to break the game (in how many fights is such a maneuver going to be useful?), it shows creativity on the part of the player, and it generally hits all my positives and none of my negatives. When in doubt, say yes--that's my rule .

Daniel

 

[FCWesel]

As for the action described, I would allow it, because it is awesome.

Exactly.

It's heroic and cool.

 

[Xanterith]

I too would have allowed the action because as previously stated it is both awesome and sweet. However, I don't think I would just "let" it happen, as in the PC jumping in can just grab him and flee without the cube doing anything. I think one AoO on the person grabbing the friend is what I would adjudicate, but I would let him use his mobility and dodge feats on that attack. OR if I was feeling really nasty, let the cube attack the friend, but allow the PC doing the saving to use his mobility, dodge, and possibly cover bonus to save his friend.

back to the rules...

Well, as I noted above, there's two potential answers to that.

1. The movement into the opponent's square occurs after the attack roll. I personally wouldn't consider this valid, since it explicitly doesn't count as part of your movement for the round, but there's room to argue it.

2. You could move after the grapple (after the damage is dealt) by failing to carry out step 4 to maintain the grapple.

-Hyp.

1. The movement into the opponents square is not 5 feet. In order to cover 5 feet after the attack you would have to move out, through or fully occupy the opponents square, it is not possible to move 5 feet inside a square (unless I am losing my mind)

2. I believe, but I am not positive, that your opponent can choose to maintain the grapple if you release. I'm not sure where I read this or if was 3.0 but I can't find it in the 3.5 SRD. In any event, I could see this maneuver working with Spring Attack - jump in, break the arm, jump out. Wouldn't help much in the situation with his buddy though.