Unarmed Spring Attack?

[Pielorinho]

Hmm...I note that moving while in a grapple takes a standard action, which might negate what I said above. However, given that the friend is paralyzed in our example, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to use the grappling rules to resolve gaining hold of the friend, and then to switch immediately to the rules for dragging a load: in other words, as soon as the friend is grabbed, treat them as so much dead weight. They are not, after all, resisting the grapple, which is presumably what makes moving under a grapple a standard action.

In fact, I think I'd allow this to happen in any case wherein a character is paralyzed, whether friend or foe.
1) Move adjacent to the character.
2) Grapple.
3) Move away, treating them as dead weight.

Steps 1-3 can all be done in one round by a character with spring attack.

Daniel

 

[Artoomis]

Hmm...I note that moving while in a grapple takes a standard action, which might negate what I said above. However, given that the friend is paralyzed in our example, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to use the grappling rules to resolve gaining hold of the friend, and then to switch immediately to the rules for dragging a load: in other words, as soon as the friend is grabbed, treat them as so much dead weight. They are not, after all, resisting the grapple, which is presumably what makes moving under a grapple a standard action.

In fact, I think I'd allow this to happen in any case wherein a character is paralyzed, whether friend or foe.
1) Move adjacent to the character.
2) Grapple.
3) Move away, treating them as dead weight.

Steps 1-3 can all be done in one round by a character with spring attack.

Daniel

Looks fine to me. You don't even have to call it a "grapple." Just grab and go. Perhaps an attack roll vs. AC 10 just to see if you really flubbed it. You are, after all, just grabbing whatever you can, be it wrist, arm, shirt, whatever.

 

[Xanterith]

My ruling would be that if the person is paralyzed then they would be counted as an object as far as picking up, moving, dragging, etc is concerned. I don't think you would need spring attack to move in and grab them (one move action) then drag them out (2nd move action). All spring attack does is prevent them from getting an AoO on you, which since they are paralyzed, and your friend, doesn't really matter. Plus you can move farther with the double move than spring attack.

 

[Pielorinho]

My ruling would be that if the person is paralyzed then they would be counted as an object as far as picking up, moving, dragging, etc is concerned. I don't think you would need spring attack to move in and grab them (one move action) then drag them out (2nd move action). All spring attack does is prevent them from getting an AoO on you, which since they are paralyzed, and your friend, doesn't really matter. Plus you can move farther with the double move than spring attack.

The problem is this:
-Picking something up is a move action.
-Grappling is an attack action.
-Spring attack allows movement before and after an attack action, but not a move action.

So if we treat grabbing your friend (or paralyzed foe) as a grapple, the person can grab hold and move before and after. If we treat them as picking up an object, they can't move after. Except that if we treat them as maintaining a grapple instead of carrying dead weight, they can't move after, since moving in a grapple is a standard action.

But if we have them pick up the character as a grapple and then treat the picked-up-foe as dead weight (i.e., an object), then they can do this maneuver.

Since I want to allow this maneuver, and since I don't see any reason why this (admittedly cherry-picked) rules interpretation would create problems, that reading works for me.

Daniel

 

[Xanterith]

Picking up an item is a move equivilent action, grabbing something is not. To count as picking up, I would say that you literally have to pick the person up and throw them over your shoulder, just grabbing him could be done as a part of your first move action.

Moving a heavy object is also considered a move equivilent action. This would be the second part of your combat round. I would say you could move the friend as any other object.

Basically forget the grabbing part - use move 1 to move to friend. Use Move 2 to move heavy object - friend. Get AoO'd by large cube.

 

[Pielorinho]

Picking up an item is a move equivilent action, grabbing something is not.

I like the cut of your jib!

That's a distinction I hadn't considered before, but it makes sense. "Grabbing an object" isn't listed, but I can see the idea that flinging out a hand and clutching something would be a free action, as long as whatever you're trying to grab isn't trying to resist or isn't on the floor or otherwise difficult to put your hand on.

Of course, I'm generous, so I'd probably allow someone to pick something off the floor as part of a spring attack, even though that blatantly violates the written rules.

Daniel

 

[Hypersmurf]

Smurf,

I still don't think that moving into an opponents square is 5 feet of movement after the attack.

1) Personally I don't think you moved 5', although I could see someone arguing this especially if they were fighting a large or bigger creature.

The opponent is in an adjacent square.

Let's say that the opponent is not there, and I move into that adjacent square as part of my move action. How much movement have I used?

Let's say that instead of moving there as part of a move action, I take a 5' step. The 5' step can move me into an adjacent square, but no further. How many feet do I travel when I take a five-foot-step into an adjacent square?

Let's say that instead of wanting to move into that adjacent square, I want to attack someone standing in it. Let's say I'm Tiny, with a reach of 0 feet. Can I hit him without moving into his square? What if I have a reach of 5 feet? What if I have a reach of 10 feet? How many feet of reach are required to strike an opponent in an adjacent square?

When I'm moving into my opponent's square to maintain a grapple, I'm moving from this square into an adjacent square. All of the preceding questions are leading up to: What's the distance travelled when moving from this square into an adjacent square?

2) This movement happens during the attack not after.

Now, here, I disagree; it happens during the attack action, but after the attack that is made as part of that attack action. The PHB requires you to move after the attack, not after the attack action... however, the Special Edition PHB (which I don't have access to) does contain an updated wording which might contradict that. Without access to the revised wording, I can't be certain.

-Hyp.

 

[Xanterith]

In the campaigns I have played in, we are very liberal with the "drawing a weapon as part of a move with a BAB of +1 or higher" rule. Pretty much if you are moving, we figure you can use your hands to get at an item or pick something up along the way. If you don't move however, it costs you your move to get something/pick something up/ etc..... Not really in the rules, but more in the spirit of things.

 

[Xanterith]

One last one maybe....

What's the distance travelled when moving from this square into an adjacent square?

5' when unoccupied, variable but less than 5' when occupied. I would adjudicate that the movement into an occupied square is always less than movement into an unoccupied square unless that movement carries you completely through and out of the square. It may cost 5' of movement to get there, but you don't actually move 5'.

It does not occur after the attack action part of the grapple, it occurs after the grapple check portion. The attack action could be interpreted as the melee touch attack to start the grapple. Again this would break the Spring Attack, because you would need to do a grapple check after the melee touch attack and would not have time to move in between, unless you see the whole thing as one event or action with multiple components (as I do) that would include the movement portion of it, and again you would not be able to move after it.

This again may be completely irrelevant because the SRD states that one of the consequences of grappling is:

No Movement: You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check (see below) to move while grappling.

If you move into the square to continue the grapple, you are grappling and therefore can not move. This movement is special, does not use any of your normal movement, so on those grounds as well I would say that it does not count as movement after the attack, because the movement doesn't count.

 

[Hypersmurf]

5' when unoccupied, variable but less than 5' when occupied.

I call shenanigans. You're in the same square regardless, five feet from where you started.

It does not occur after the attack action part of the grapple

Exactly what I said. It doesn't occur after the attack action, but it occurs after the attack... which is what the original wording of Spring Attack requires.

Again this would break the Spring Attack, because you would need to do a grapple check after the melee touch attack and would not have time to move in between...

You don't need to move before the grapple check; you need to move before the end of the round.

If you move into the square to continue the grapple, you are grappling and therefore can not move. This movement is special, does not use any of your normal movement, so on those grounds as well I would say that it does not count as movement after the attack, because the movement doesn't count.

And if you read back, you'll find that I said exactly that - I personally wouldn't allow the move into the square to count towards Spring Attack's requirement because it doesn't count against your movement for the round, but it's not clear-cut; you are moving five feet after the attack, it's just that it doesn't reduce your remaining movement.

-Hyp.