Unarmed strikes, Natural attacks and Grapples

[Dimensional]

Hi

I'm working up grappling based character for an ebberon game.
anyway I'm using a shifter character with the razor claw trait.

now I was considering a monk for the characters class.

as far as I understand in a grapple you can make a grapple check for each itterative attack.
you can also make an attack with a nattural weapon at -4.

1. so can a monk with claws make his norma ltterative attacks to maintain the grapple/pin and then make is claw attacks(taking the -5 or -2 for secondary natural attacks?)
2.can the Natural attacks be taken before the Itterative attacks?
3.does this change if the character is a fighter with the improved Unarmed strike feat?

The idea is basicaly to go for the weretouched master prestige class for the weretouched II improved grab ability eventualy and While monk looks the most efective way for this character to get grappling, I don't thinkit fits the flavour I have for this character.

I really need to understand how this works in my head before I get to the table. I've never played a grapple intensive character before and while i think I get most of it there are these corner issues that I'm not sure of.

jeremy

 

[Bront]

1) No, because claws are not secondary attacks for the shifter. It needs to speciflcy be a secondary attack. You can either do damage equivilent to your unarmed, or do an attack with your natural weapons.

2) No, see above.

3) No, all improved grapple does is add +4, and remove the AoO to resist an attempt to graple.

Here's some clairity.

Improved grab means you can make melee attacks that will allow you to automaticly engage in a grapple for free if you hit. This actualy means the monk is a poor choice for that.

You are better off focusing on natural weapon combat untill that point if you are looking to go with razorclaw. Also, claws and grapling don't work as well as you might think mechanicaly.

If you want, you could go fighter and go the unarmed grapler with fighter, while specializing in your shifter claws as well. Or, simply ignore that till you get the free graple, and use that instead of improved graple. A Barbarian Razorclazw with bear weartouched could be fun with the improved grapple.

BTW, don't forget to check out the Eratta on that class. They fixed it.

 

[glass]

1) No, because claws are not secondary attacks for the shifter. It needs to speciflcy be a secondary attack. You can either do damage equivilent to your unarmed, or do an attack with your natural weapons.

Nonsense. You can combine any natural weapon with manufactured weapons, and in that case they are considered secondary, even if they are normally primary. However...

1. so can a monk with claws make his norma ltterative attacks to maintain the grapple/pin and then make is claw attacks(taking the -5 or -2 for secondary natural attacks?)

I think the answer here is 'no' because I don't think you can mix 'in graple' and 'out of grapple' attacks in the same round. I'm not sure about that though. Hopefully someone will be along soon to give a more definitive answer.

2.can the Natural attacks be taken before the Itterative attacks?

Certainly.

3.does this change if the character is a fighter with the improved Unarmed strike feat?

Not in the least.


glass.

 

[Garrett843]

If you want it to go straight with the grappling idea I might recommend trying the reaping mauler depending on what it's pluses to grapple are. This prestige class can get slightly annoying after a while though it seems to get repetitive.

 

[Garrett843]

If you want it to go straight with the grappling idea I might recommend trying the reaping mauler depending on what it's pluses to grapple are. This prestige class can get slightly annoying after a while though it seems to get repetitive.

 

[Klaus]

1 - I believe the answer is Yes. You use your iterative attacks to maintain the grapple, pin or cause unarmed damage, and then you take your natural weapon attacks (at -5 for being secondary, and an additional -4 for the grapple, for a grand total of -9... You might as well not even try it... ).

2 - No. Secondary attacks always go after the Primary attack, according to the monster stats in the MM.

3 - No.

 

[glass]

2 - No. Secondary attacks always go after the Primary attack, according to the monster stats in the MM.

Do you have a citation for that? I have never seen any such rule.

AFAIK, the only rules for ordering is that iteratives have to go in order from highest bonus to lowest. Any other attacks you might have can be slotted in at any point before, after or during the iterative attack routine.


glass.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Here's what the latest FAQ has to say on the subject:

Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural
weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can
he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed
(plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?

If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.

A 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7
(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his
8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof
attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the
flurry).

 

[Klaus]

Do you have a citation for that? I have never seen any such rule.

AFAIK, the only rules for ordering is that iteratives have to go in order from highest bonus to lowest. Any other attacks you might have can be slotted in at any point before, after or during the iterative attack routine.


glass.

Like I said, "according the the monster stats in the MM". Whenever a creature with manufactured + natural attacks is listed, the secondary attacks come last.

 

[Infiniti2000]

1. No. Grappling is a special situation where you do not get a normal full attack action. You explicitly get iterative attacks, or you can take one natural weapon attack, but you do not get a normal full attack action.

2. Yes (in a normal full attack action). There's no restriction on when natural weapon attacks occur.

3. No.