Undead and haste

[Junkheap]

Simple question, can undead be hasted? Haste has a fort(harmless) save. Undead are immune to anything that gives a fort save unless it affects objects. I don't think haste affects objects. I know that they can be slowed(will save).

And does anybody know the reasoning behing giving different saves to haste/slow?

 

[James McMurray]

I've never noticed the save on Haste. In mycampaign you can be sure that undead have been hasted in the past, and will be in the future. There's no reason (IMO) that they shouldn't be able to.

 

[Uller]

Simple question, can undead be hasted? Haste has a fort(harmless) save. Undead are immune to anything that gives a fort save unless it affects objects. I don't think haste affects objects. I know that they can be slowed(will save).

Well...by the strictest interpritation of the rule, they are immune only if a fort save is "required" (says so right in the Undead rules in the MM. Since Haste is harmless, the save is not required so they are not immune. This is a reach, I know...

I've never felt that that rule made much sense. For instance, I'm running an adventure where there are some monsters whose roars do Sonic damage, Fort save for half. By this rule, a zombie would be immune to this attack. I don't see any reason why a zombie would not be blown to pieces by such an attack.

So as a house rule...Undead are immune only to those things that are explicitly called out in the MM and they automatically make their save against anything else that calls for a Fort save (except a Mace of Disruption...which for some reason calls for a fort save).

And does anybody know the reasoning behing giving different saves to haste/slow?

No clue. They ought to both be Will, IMO.

 

[da chicken]

Strictly speaking, haste does not function on undead.

However, it is also clear from several statements made by R&D/The Sage that this is an unintended side effect of the general rule about undead and Fort saves.

No erratum has been issued, but the designers did intend for undead to be hastable.

I would rule that haste explicitly can function on undead. I treat the spell as if the description said, "This spell functions on undead even though it requires a Fort save."

One question to Skip I saw argued that undead could ignore the saving throw because haste's saving throw has the "(harmless)" descriptor. Skip stated that while that would result in the spell working, that line of reasoning was not valid.

AFAIK, the reasoning behind the slow/haste save discrepancy is because haste makes your body move faster, while slow restricts your movement (like hold person). Haste in 2E stated it increased your metabolism, which is why it aged you. That's probably why it is a Fort save.

 

[Umbran]

Went over this with a few people yesterday, in fact...

Uller: You are partly correct. Undead are immune to things that require a fortitude save unless the thing also effects objects.

So, on that sonic attack - imagine this - if it's the sort of thing that does damage by "heavy stun" or shocking internal organs, then the undead don't care. If it's the sort fo sound that cracks stone, the undead are just as vulnerable as everyone else....

Now, on whether you can Haste undead - by the strictest reading I can find, the answer is "only if he wants to be hasted". No errata is needed.

Check out the PHB, pg 150 "Voluntarily Giving Up a Saving Throw". A creature can choose to forego a saving throw, and willingly accept the spell's result. Note, that's "forego", not "automatically fail". If the creature wishes, the save doesn't happen. If it doesn't happen, it certainly isn't required. This specifically can get through immunities - the text refers to an elf setting aside his immunity to sleep effects as an example.

So, if the undead has choice, it can set aside the save - you can haste intelligent undead, if you tell them what you plan first. Liches can use Polymorph Self, and so on.

 

[kreynolds]

Simple question, can undead be hasted?

According to the rules, no. Is it silly? Maybe.

And does anybody know the reasoning behing giving different saves to haste/slow?

It seems to me that the Fortitude save for Haste is a throwback from 2nd edition. Since haste no longer effects your metabolism, and it's simply magic, I see no logical reason why Haste should be a Fort save, and it would make more sense as a Will save. Of course, that would be rule-0.

 

[Umbran]

See also, this thread: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21052

 

[KarinsDad]

I would rule that intelligent Undead can allow Haste to affect them, but non-intelligent Undead would automatically attempt to resist and automatically succeed since they are immune for Fort save spells that do not affect objects.

 

[kreynolds]

I would rule that intelligent Undead can allow Haste to affect them, but non-intelligent Undead would automatically attempt to resist and automatically succeed since they are immune for Fort save spells that do not affect objects.

Hey now...that's not a bad idea. Rule-0. But still not a bad idea. I like that.

 

[Junkheap]

It would be kinda screwy for a lich not to able to haste himself. Personally i think they should have left the unnatural age bit, But not the system shock save. Sure it benefitted demi humans more, but for me in my campaigns i have never went anywhere close to old age(human or otherwise). But then they have to re introduce all the ageing stuff again, and that would be a whole other mess.

Back to the haste on undead, it kinda isnt fair. I mean, specifically it shoulnt matter if it is a fort(harmless)save, because they are immune to such things. It is their very being. Doesnt matter if it is beneficial or not, they can't have it. Its like can you cast the following spells on an undead

blindness/deafness(fort negates)
circle of doom(fortitude half)
chill touch(fort partial)but has a section on specifically affecting undead
contaign(fort neg)
control winds(fort neg)undead would NOT ignore these effects.
destruction(fort part)
disintergrate(fort partial)undead affected
energy drain(fort neg)specific for undead
enlarge(fort neg)
flare(cantrip)fort neg

These are just some of them that have fort save from the phb. If you allow haste to affect them, you should inreality let blindness/deafness affect them as well. Another spell that is like haste that i just found was enlarge. Can you cast enlarge on undead?

See when i see immunity i think it means always ignoring the effect. In fact, you don't even know what the effect will be. Maybe it should only affect intelligent undead, who know what is going on, but i just want to know by the rules.

By the way i am not picking on anyone, i just wanted to know how everyone plays with this, or if anyone noticed it.

Sorry for spelling mistakes.

Sorry i am too slow in typing out my responses. I was tinking about intellignet undead as well. Thanx