Underwater Flying [2006 Thread]

[Artoomis]

For a select few things. Name one thing that can fly underwater and I can name five that can't.

Can't or won't?

I think that anything that can be placed underwater can move to some extent, if it can survive long enough and does not panic. Of course, that's neither here nor there. It makes no difference - all that's really important is that creatures that want to fly underwater actually do.

Birds would (presumably) "fly" by moving there wings just as they do in normal flight. Certainly some birds truly do this.

Whether or not flying works underwater as "flight" or as "swimming" can certainly be debated. I think in D&D terms doing it as "flight" is far better so they don't somehow magically get perfect manueverability as well as the extra speed of flight propulsion.

I think the fact that you can use your fly speed underwater is failry obvious, but I can see a very good argument that this is "swimming." Unfortunately, using the "swimming" rules opens up more a bigger can of worms that using the "flying" rules at reduced speed and manueverability.

Still, if you want to allow flying underwater as "swimming" I'd say that would be equally supported by the rules.

 

[KarinsDad]

1) The core rules do not specifically disallow using fly speed underwater

It specifies when flying can be done and underwater is not a condition that is specified.

Tactical Aerial Movement
Once movement becomes three-dimensional and involves turning in midair and maintaining a minimum velocity to stay aloft, it gets more complicated. Most flying creatures have to slow down at least a little to make a turn, and many are limited to fairly wide turns and must maintain a minimum forward speed.

...

Fly: A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load.

...

Fly
The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load).

What definition of the word Aerial is not explicit in the word Fly?

Your logic here is invalid.

Just because the rules do not state that a Flight Speed cannot be used underwater is not a rule that it can. The only definition we have of Fly (and Flight Speed) is in Air, so flying is only in Air unless an explicit rule changes that.


MotP does not change that for non-water planes of existence. That is a rule for one specific plane of existence. The FAQ is adding a rule that does not exist in RAW.


You guys are going around in circles and are totally ignoring RAW in the process. Your POV is only supported by RAW if you can quote a rule that states that flying can be done in water. There are only two underwater movement modes specified in RAW and those are Swimming and Walking.

 

[Artoomis]

....
You guys are going around in circles and are totally ignoring RAW in the process. Your POV is only supported by RAW if you can quote a rule that states that flying can be done in water. There are only two underwater movement modes specified in RAW and those are Swimming and Walking.

This is an error on your part. You are reading the rule as if it stated that flying can ONLY be done in the air. If that were true, flying could not be done in any other medium - such as pure oxygen, because that'd not "air."

That's a bit of a silly example just to point out the flaw in reading the rule as prostrictive.

The real point I am trying to make is that the rules simply do not directly address whether flying is allowed underwater. That most certainly does not make it disallowed though.

One must take the whole rules set, along with the FAQ and MotP and anything else all together to decide if flying is allowed underwater and, if so, how it actually works.

By core rules alone it is neither allowed nor prohibited. Core rules do tell us that fly speed is used in the air. It does not address when else flying can or cannot be done.

In pure oxygen?
In a poisonous gas?
In a vacuum?
Underwater?
Underground (as in actually in the ground, like burrowing)

The rules do NOT say where to draw the line. It seems clear to me that flying to create a path underground (like burrowing) is right out because pushing dirt aside with your head simply would not work.

On the other hand, flying underwater does seem reasonable, is not prohibited by the rules, and is specifally allowed by the FAQ and MotP and also follows the spriit of the rules for "Hampered Movement."

All in all, I'd say the rules allow it, and I further say that's a pretty easy call.

Frankly, whether a really strict reading of the rules supports it or not is really unimportant, especially as it is possible to argue it either way.

The hard part is to decide what happens, exactly. Is the "fly" speed converted to swimming (perhaps at a reduced rate)? Are the speed and maneuverability reduced but it is still flying? This is where the DM must decide.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Whether or not flying works underwater as "flight" or as "swimming" can certainly be debated.

But, if arguments based on precedence hold value, then the Penguin in Frostburn provides precedence on birds that "fly underwater". That precedence clearly shows IMO that creatures that fly underwater should be given swim speeds.

You could easily refute this precedence by merely providing a stat block (let's at least require a WotC-published stat block) of a bird that you have evidence "flies underwater" in the real world and yet is not granted a swim speed in the D&D world. Unfortunately, most such creatures will not likely be statted up anywhere as they don't make good encounters (not sure why the penguin was statted, perhaps as a familiar).

 

[Artoomis]

But, if arguments based on precedence hold value, then the Penguin in Frostburn provides precedence on birds that "fly underwater". That precedence clearly shows IMO that creatures that fly underwater should be given swim speeds.

You could easily refute this precedence by merely providing a stat block (let's at least require a WotC-published stat block) of a bird that you have evidence "flies underwater" in the real world and yet is not granted a swim speed in the D&D world. Unfortunately, most such creatures will not likely be statted up anywhere as they don't make good encounters (not sure why the penguin was statted, perhaps as a familiar).

Of course, a penguin does not fly in the air, so is not the best example.

 

[irdeggman]

The MoP is specific to the environments it addresses.

See pg 7 Planer traits)

"Each plane of existance has its own properties - the natural laws of its universe."


Pg 6 What is a Plane?

"The planes of exiistance are different realities with interwoven connections. Except for rare linking points, each plane is effectively its own universe withits own natural laws."

pg 77 Movement and Combat (from Elemental Plane of Water) - pretty much the source of the following "Those with fly speeds can fly at half their normal rate, and their maneuverability is reduced by one grade."

Water Combat (pg 78)

"Creatures without a swim speed (or freedom of movement spell or similar effect) suffer a -2 penalty on attacks and damage underwater." {This penalty does not exist in the core ruels for underwater combat (DMG pg 92 & 93)}



Features of the Elemental Plane of Water (pg 78)

"A great difference between the Elemental Plane of Water and other watery domains is a lack of pressure. In Material Plane oceans (and soem others), the pressure of the water increases with depth. The water pressure can grow strong enough on the MAteerial Plane to crush the life out of creatures and bend steel. But the pressure on the Elemental Plane of Water is is no worse than a just a few feet underwater in a Material Plane ocean, so there is no dire consequences."

There are other things throughout the book too.

Basically the book either states or implies that the Planes are all unique and each is handled separately with their own rules.

 

[KarinsDad]

This is an error on your part. You are reading the rule as if it stated that flying can ONLY be done in the air. If that were true, flying could not be done in any other medium - such as pure oxygen, because that'd not "air."

That's a bit of a silly example just to point out the flaw in reading the rule as prostrictive.

The real point I am trying to make is that the rules simply do not directly address whether flying is allowed underwater.

It's not an error. It's reading the rule as written. It's the movement mode rule concerning flying.

Where is your movement mode rule to support your POV?

Fly: A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load.

No different than:

Burrow: A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise.

How much more explicit do you need these rules to be other than for them to state exactly how they can be used?

The rules on movement mode are explicit as to which mediums each movement mode relates to.

So, your claim here is not only false, but fallaciously so since it ignores what is actually written in order to pretend that some other unwritten rule is possible.

It's one thing to think the rules are unclear when no rules support can be found. It's another to deny what is actually written and pretend it does not exist.

 

[Artoomis]

...Basically the book either states or implies that the Planes are all unique and each is handled separately with their own rules.

True enough. But that is no reason not to look to the rules for the Plane of Water where they seem to fill in for missing rules for underwater adventures.

The core rules do not do much in that area.

BTW: The DMG rules for underwater combat DO include -2 attack and damage, but in more detail than the 3.0 MotP. See "Table: Combat Adjustments Underwater."

 

[Korak]

fly  /fla/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[flahy] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, flew or, for 11, 19, flied, flown, flying, noun, plural flies.

–verb (used without object)
1. to move through the air using wings.
2. to be carried through the air by the wind or any other force or agency: bits of paper flying about.
3. to float or flutter in the air: flags flying in the breeze.

There are over 30 more definitions. Many, if not most, of them mention air. A few mention the vaccuum of space. None mention water, or any other liquid. Flight, or more precisely, a fly speed, is defined in D&D as describing the ability to move through air. The particular body parts used (or not used) and the particular motions used (or not used) and the magic (or lack of magic) involved are NOT important.

What IS important is the medium through or along which the movement is made.

For flying (fly speed), it is air.

For walking/running (land, or normal speed), it is ground (regardless of whether there is air or water or chicken soup above the ground... "firm footing" is involved).

For swimming (swim speed), it is water.

For burrowing (burrow speed), it is loose earth (and yes, burrowing animals do push earth out of the way with their heads...see draconomicon).

For climbing (climb speed), it is branches/stone handholds & footholds/rope/etc.

A bird moving it's limbs about and directing it's movement through water is swimming, not flying. Because the movements of it's wings do not constitute flying. The propulsive effect of those movements in air constitute flying. In water, if those motions produce propulsion, they constitute swimming... in earth, burrowing, etc.

I think it is logically far more reasonable (given the most common usage patterns of the words) to extend the notion of flight to other gaseous mediums, swimming to other liquid mediums, and burrowing to other solid aggregates of similar consistency to loose earth.

Artoomis, to a certain extent, I agree that you can use common sense to extend a bit when confronted with rule text that is not explicitly exclusionary (though I tend to lean towards the belief that if a rules says.. ability X can do A, B, C, and D in these circumstances... then ability X, by default can't do G). However, is this case, as I have stated above... I think common sense and English usage point towards movement through air (or matter in gaseous form, more generally) to be the most proper meaning for fly... and similarly movement through water (...liquid..) for swim.

The rules also cover very well what to do with creatures who do not have a swim speed and do not automatically sink or float based on bouyancy. They make swim skill checks to move at some fraction of their base (land) speed.

So, movement in water is either based off of swim speed or a fraction of land speed for those creatures not possessing a swim speed.... strictly RAW, of course.

Many of the suggestions in this thread, from the FAQ, or even in trying to extend the MotP rule for the Plane of Water to the Prime Material produce workable, sensible "solutions" for people that don't feel that the RAW properly models their notion of what the fly spell should do. That's fine. I'm not even saying I wouldn't make a similar ruling. However, in my view, it would clearly be contradictory to RAW.

 

[irdeggman]

True enough. But that is no reason not to look to the rules for the Plane of Water where they seem to fill in for missing rules for underwater adventures.

Only if you preceive them as missing.

BTW: The DMG rules for underwater combat DO include -2 attack and damage, but in more detail than the 3.0 MotP. See "Table: Combat Adjustments Underwater."

Only for s/b weapons and ranged attacks (thrown weapons are useless) not for all attacks.
The MoP has the penalty apply for all attacks.

If you fail your swim check you are limited to only move and free actions or suffer a penalty to the amount of time you can hold your breath. But this isn't really applicable to someone who can breath underwater so it is not truely applicable.