Underwater Flying [2006 Thread]

[Infiniti2000]

You are selectively choose creatures that you think fly underwater while ignoring the huge number that have a Fly speed and which you know cannot 'fly' underwater. You cannot just dismiss it.

Well I can. This is not a vote.

I fully support your right to rule however you please. This discussion is not intended to tell you are playing 'wrong' or anything. But, the debate is made moot when you respond like this. You're making an arbitrary, completely unfounded dismissal. Along the same lines, I could just dismiss your whole perspective because 'I can'. That's not conducive to meaningful debate.

And the MotP will still tell us we can fly underwater at half speed!

It also improves the maneuverability of every creature with a Fly speed by one category. Good luck with that.

 

[Artoomis]

It also improves the maneuverability of every creature with a Fly speed by one category. Good luck with that.

?? Does it not REDUCE it one category - which makes perfect sense. It lines up nicely with hampered movement rules, if you consider water to be causing hampered movement for flying, which is perfcetly reasonable.

 

[Artoomis]

No, Musrum gave that quote as evidence that you can fly underwater and the quote itself is explicit that you are swimming. It says, quite plainly, "swimming characters." So, your entire statement here is in direct conflict... speed?

Just to be sure this is addressed:

Swimming characters move with perfect manuerabilty underwater.

Characters flying underwater move at 1/2 fly speed and lose one class of manuevarability.

Those two statements are not in conflict at all. You chose one or the other if you happen to have both choices available to you.

 

[Infiniti2000]

?? Does it not REDUCE it one category - which makes perfect sense. It lines up nicely with hampered movement rules, if you consider water to be causing hampered movement for flying, which is perfcetly reasonable.

The notes on the plane of air increase the maneuverability of all flying creatures by 1 category (in air). If you use the rules in one section, applying them to a different plane, you need to use them all, n'est-ce pas? If you don't, then you need to provide a suitable justification as to why you are being inconsistent. IMO, there is no such justification here because technically water is water and air is air. If the air on the plane of air is "special" (or whatever justification you use), then so is the water on the plane of water.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Just to be sure this is addressed:

Swimming characters move with perfect manuerabilty underwater.

Characters flying underwater move at 1/2 fly speed and lose one class of manuevarability.

Those two statements are not in conflict at all. You chose one or the other if you happen to have both choices available to you.

You're not addressing anything with that. You are not understanding my point. Musrum provided that quote as evidence that you can use a Fly speed underwater by referencing the word "flying". That completely ignores the other reference in the same sentence about "swimming".

You are essentially backing me up be saying that you cannot be both flying and swimming at the same time. Thus, this invalidates that statement from the DMG as any sort of evidence that you can "fly" underwater.

 

[KarinsDad]

And the MotP will still tell us we can fly underwater at half speed!

Every once in a while a weird rule gets added for some out in left field area of interest in some out in left field book which basically ignores how the core rules are written. When it comes to the rules, a good rule of thumb is to use the primary source rule. The source rules already have rules for this: flying is in the air, swimming is underwater.


MotP's an old 3E book which discusses the other planes, not the material plane. The rules are for those other planes. This illustrates absolutely zip.

In fact, if you check the SRD on the D20 site, the section on the Planes does not have this rule at all.

 

[Artoomis]

You're not addressing anything with that. You are not understanding my point. Musrum provided that quote as evidence that you can use a Fly speed underwater by referencing the word "flying". That completely ignores the other reference in the same sentence about "swimming".

You are essentially backing me up be saying that you cannot be both flying and swimming at the same time. Thus, this invalidates that statement from the DMG as any sort of evidence that you can "fly" underwater.

What other reference in the same sentence?

Could you quote it, please, as I could not find it?

 

[KarinsDad]

What other reference in the same sentence?

Could you quote it, please, as I could not find it?

And on pg93 of the DMG it states that swimming characters move "as if they were flying with perfect maneuverability". So it seems you can fly underwater (quite well in fact).

This is a comparison sentence. Swimming with perfect maneuverability as if flying.

It is discussing maneuverability of swimming. It does not indicate that someone can fly underwater. Musrum was invalidly claiming that it does indicate this.

 

[mvincent]

Can't everyone here agree to disagree? The issue is subject to interpretation, and I'm perfectly content to have each DM rule as he sees fit (the rules can be viewed as supporting them either way).

If you are playing in an RPGA game (or otherwise try to follow the FAQ for consistency of player expectations) then the 3.0 FAQ clarification might be your primary choice (I'm not aware of any change in 3.5 that would invalidate it). It says:
"Can a creature fly underwater? I’ve never heard of a
normal bird flying underwater. What are the rules
regarding this? If it’s possible, what is the penalty to
movement and maneuverability?
Flying creatures must swim when they enter the water, just
as other creatures do. A fly spell lets you swim at your normal
flying speed, but with the same maneuverability as other
swimmers (perfect maneuverability). Incorporeal creatures also
can fly/swim in this manner (they move through water just as
easily as they move through other substances). Note that
gaseous creatures cannot enter water."

I personally would combine this with the MotP ruling, so that winged flyers can't fly underwater, and wingless/magical flyers do so at reduced speed (maneuverability doesn't seem like it would be an issue underwater). Is that unreasonable?

As for Superman flying underwater being relevant... well, this is a fantasy game, and using fictional wingless flying examples from literary sources seems perfectly reasonable.

 

[KarinsDad]

A fly spell lets you swim at your normal flying speed, but with the same maneuverability as other swimmers (perfect maneuverability).

If the Fly spell actually stated this and it was not just another example of the FAQ introducing yet another new rule, we would not be having the discussion.


As for agreeing to disagree, no. I do not agree to do that.