Underwater Flying [2006 Thread]

[Musrum]

Only for s/b weapons and ranged attacks (thrown weapons are useless) not for all attacks.
The MoP has the penalty apply for all attacks.

This would be a case of 3.5 rules for underwater combat superceeding the 3.0 rules for underwater combat.

And no, I don't believe there is anything in the 3.5 core ruleset that superceeds the 3.0 MotP rules for underwater movement. (The presence of absence being insufficient)

I agree that if a rule does not specificly exclude an action ("I turn the moon green with my mind") this is not the same as giving you permission.

However it certainly does not exclude the option. So when the Complete Penultimator comes out with the rule: "A 4th level Warlock can choose to change the colour of the moon once a month as a Swift action" there is no conflict with the core ruleset.

 

[Korak]

I am happy to use 1/2 fly speed underwater and call it "swimming" if that helps...

Not so much different from using 1/4 land speed and calling it "swimming". The only difference is bird use the same bio-mechanical means for propulsion instead of a vastly different means that a typical humaniod uses when swimming.

And you are welcome to use it as a house rule... I might even do something similar. Most likely, I'd add text to the fly spell that specifies that it grants a swim speed of 30'.

Let it be noted that the rules explicitly state that creatures moving in water that do not posess a swim speed do so my making swim skill checks and moving at a fraction of their base(land) speed. There is no similar mechanic anywhere in the rules that provides for movement in any medium other than air to be based on any fraction of fly speed.

And, as I said before... the motions of the limbs are not what defines flying, the fact that motion is through the air is what makes it flying.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Bob is under the effects of a permanent Fly spell that allows movement as a purely mental function.

If movement using a Fly spell is purely mental, why is it that wearing a breastplate slows you down, but carrying a breastplate doesn't?

-Hyp.

 

[Musrum]

Where does it state that they cannot? And even if it did, that would be an explicit change to the standard rule.

It doesn't say you can't. Which is wrong. I a trying to demonstrate that the rule in the back of the MM is not the begining and end of the rules of flight movement.

1. There are other rules in other books.
2. A strict reading of "Air" excludes cases where we know flying can occur.
3. A strict reading of "Air" includes cases where we know flying cannot occur.
4. These rules only include creatures, not other classes of things that fly.

On the other hand, you do not have an explicit rule change for your POV.


So far, you appear to be grasping at some pretty thin straws here with questions like these since you know exactly what the movement mode rules are for Flying.

Indeed. And the swimming rules next to them make the DMG rules for walking underwater invalid?

 

[Musrum]

If movement using a Fly spell is purely mental, why is it that wearing a breastplate slows you down, but carrying a breastplate doesn't?

-Hyp.

Psychosomatic...

I honestly don't know. I'm not even sure that a normal Fly spell allows "purely mental" movement (although I recall that Levitate does).

Does this point chnage the scenario?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Does this point chnage the scenario?

If you're not actually referring to a permanent version of the PHB spell Fly, then I don't have an issue with it

-Hyp.

 

[Musrum]

And you are welcome to use it as a house rule... I might even do something similar. Most likely, I'd add text to the fly spell that specifies that it grants a swim speed of 30'.

Let it be noted that the rules explicitly state that creatures moving in water that do not posess a swim speed do so my making swim skill checks and moving at a fraction of their base(land) speed. There is no similar mechanic anywhere in the rules that provides for movement in any medium other than air to be based on any fraction of fly speed.

Except: the MotP for flying underwater on the PoW (and others if you believe the meta-rules allow it); and the 3.0 FAQ (which I think is a bad rule).

And, as I said before... the motions of the limbs are not what defines flying, the fact that motion is through the air is what makes it flying.

That is a consistent view which I could support if we simply recast the "flying underwater" rule discussion to "using your fly speed to swim underwater".

Unfortunately this would have some people argue that the MotP rule are now completely irrelevent.

 

[Musrum]

If you're not actually referring to a permanent version of the PHB spell Fly, then I don't have an issue with it

-Hyp.

No, not Fly. I pulled it from the same dark place as the artifact...

 

[mvincent]

Just because a rule does not exist that Flying cannot be done in water does not mean it can.

So if (say) Stormwrack came out with rules detailing flight use underwater, would you cry "Foul! That contradicts the core rules and is thus invalid!"?

... or if an Underdark supplement came out with rules that allowed for burrowing to be used in the gemsdust caverns of Dimondia, would you say "No way! Core rules say that burrowing can only be used in Dirt!"?

... or if a Ghostwalk supplement detailed undead using their fly speed to move through dirt, you would say "Over my dead body will someone use a movement mode combination not specifically listed in the core rules!"?

... or if some other hypothetical supplement gave rules for using your ground speed underwater, you would say... ?

 

[KarinsDad]

So if (say) Stormwrack came out with rules detailing flight use underwater, would you cry "Foul! That contradicts the core rules and is thus invalid!"?

... or if an Underdark supplement came out with rules that allowed for burrowing to be used in the gemsdust caverns of Dimondia, would you say "No way! Core rules say that burrowing can only be used in Dirt!"?

... or if a Ghostwalk supplement detailed undead using their fly speed to move through dirt, you would say "Over my dead body will someone use a movement mode combination not specifically listed in the core rules!"?

... or if some other hypothetical supplement gave rules for using your ground speed underwater, you would say... ?

I would say that the supplement adds a rule. DMs who use the supplement can use it. Those who do not might not.

Since we do not yet have such a hypothetical mythical rule, the current rule stands.