Underwater Flying [2006 Thread]

[mvincent]

I would say that the supplement adds a rule. DMs who use the supplement can use it. Those who do not might not.

That's basically what I was saying (and clarified several times) in my original post that you quoted. My frustration stems from the fact that you just weren't getting it (and I indicated as much).

Since we do not yet have such a hypothetical mythical rule, the current rule stands.

As mentioned in that same post, the MotP and FAQ are such mythical supplements i.e. the MotP and FAQ are both supplements, and actually have license to present new rules just like any other supplement.

 

[KarinsDad]

That's basically what I was saying (and clarified several times) in my original post that you quoted. My frustration stems from the fact that you just weren't getting it (and I indicated as much).

It was not that I wasn't getting it.

It was that you had 3 points in that post, the first of which was false. That made your conclusion suspect if it is based on a faulty premise. I was focusing on that one faulty premise.

As mentioned in that same post, the MotP and FAQ are such mythical supplements i.e. the MotP and FAQ are both supplements, and actually have license to present new rules just like any other supplement.

I won't even discuss the MotP which only references this in one plane of existence.


As for the FAQ, I find it extremely amusing that people use it when it supports their POV and denigrate it when it does not.

The FAQ is a joke. It is not an errata source and it is not the rules, but some people use it for that. It is mostly a reference for people who cannot be bothered to look up the rules for themselves, but it does in some cases clarify a rule. Most of the time it either reiterates a rule as written, or it makes up a new rule out of whole cloth. You get what you pay for.

You want to consider it a rules source, fine for you. But, it is not core.

 

[Artoomis]

...This is a false statement. The Fly Movement Mode rules only allow a Fly Speed to be used in air.

That is a patently false statement as I will show:.

Can your Fly Speed be used in a pure Oxygen environment (this is not "air")?
How about a poisonous gas (this is not "air")?
etc., etc.

Clearly the Fly Movement rules do not ONLY allow flying in the air.

The limit of what is permitted with Fly is not specifically stated in the core rules. We know you CAN fly in the air. We know that is not restrictive to ONLY air (I am pretty sure everyone agrees with that). We do NOT know if that includes underwater movement or not.

Where is the line? In a magical world, how thick does a fog get before you cannot fly in it? In a magical world you can probably find fog that varies from light fog to being virtually underwater. What things OTHER than air are permissiable for flight? Where do you draw the line? And why do you draw the line where you do? Certainly not from any rules guidance.

Thus, while flight underwater is not specifically permitted, it is not specifically denied, either.

It's a pure DM choice, with some guidance from the 3.0 Motp and the old FAQ, plus you can apply (perhaps) existing swimming rules (using fly spedd as the base speed) or maybe use the Hampered Movement rules modifed a bit for flight.

 

[Deset Gled]

That is a patently false statement as I will show:.

Can your Fly Speed be used in a pure Oxygen environment (this is not "air")?
How about a poisonous gas (this is not "air")?
etc., etc.

Clearly the Fly Movement rules do not ONLY allow flying in the air.

...

Where is the line?

I find the fact that you consider the word "air" to exclude any gas that is not a specific mixture of air, nitrogen, and oxygen to be confusing. Air is not a defined game term, and your own signature states that the rules are not scientifically precise documents. I think that ruling that different types of gas qualify as air is completely reasonable. However, ruling that air is the same as water does not seem reasonable.

 

[Artoomis]

I find the fact that you consider the word "air" to exclude any gas that is not a specific mixture of air, nitrogen, and oxygen to be confusing. Air is not a defined game term, and your own signature states that the rules are not scientifically precise documents. I think that ruling that different types of gas qualify as air is completely reasonable. However, ruling that air is the same as water does not seem reasonable.

Perfectly reasonable. I am only pointing out that while your judgement call about what is included for flying is purely a judgement call, not specifally declared by the rules.

"Air" is indeed a dicitonary term, and normally we'd fall back on that in lieue of a defined game term.

It's perfectly reasonable to extend "air" to other gasses, sure, but at that point you are making a judgement call, just as allowing flying underwater is a judgement call. Each DM must make his/her own decision on when you can fly and when you cannot.

I am once again making the point that reading too much precision in the rules (You can fly ONLY in the air) leads to logical problems.

Whether or not you can fly underwater is stricly a DM's call, The ruels do NOT prohibit it.

What you find reasonable or unreasonable is not the RAW, thus fly can be allowed or prohibited underwater according to what the DM finds reasonable.

There is a difference between what you might reasonably allow or diallow (a judgement call) and what the rules specifally allow or disallow.

I think this is a judgement call, not a core rules ruling, and I think I have proved that.

 

[KarinsDad]

That is a patently false statement as I will show:.

Can your Fly Speed be used in a pure Oxygen environment (this is not "air")?
How about a poisonous gas (this is not "air")?
etc., etc.

Clearly the Fly Movement rules do not ONLY allow flying in the air.

Nope. That is an inference that you are making which is not supported by the rules.

The rules are clear. Only Air environments for flying.


Far as I know, poisonous gas is polluted air and hence is still legal. No instance of poisonous gas in the game (e.g. Cloud Kill, Stinking Cloud, etc.) indicate that it removes the air. So, the air is still there for these effects and flying is allowed. Even Solid Fog does not remove the air, hence, flying is still allowed. It is merely impeded.

Far as I know, there are no rules for pure Oxygen environments in the game, hence, it is irrelevant. Even if one had such an unusual non-core standard environment in their game, wouldn't the DM have to make a house rule as to whether flying was allowed or not for his house rule environment?


Just because you WANT the rules to be different than what they are does not make it so.

The amount of grasping at straws here is amazing. This is like saying that someone cannot Swim in muddy water according to RAW. That's just silly.

Just because there are vapors or sediments in an air or water environment does not mean that flying or swimming is disallowed.

Stick to the rules.

 

[Artoomis]

...Stick to the rules.

I am.

You CAN fly in air. You cannot fly ONLY in air (that's not what the rule says). That's the rules.

Everything else is rules interpretation and judgement calls.

 

[irdeggman]

I am.

You CAN fly in air. You cannot fly ONLY in air (that's not what the rule says). That's the rules.

Everything else is rules interpretation and judgement calls.

I think this is where you see things differently than most of the rest of us (at least those posting in the rules forum).

We are of the opinion that the rules state what they mean (or allow).

You seem to be of the opinion that they need to state everything that the don't mean (or allow) also. {I am basing my opinion of your opinion on this and things you have stated in other threads also. I see this as a common basis for your posted opinions}.

This is the fundamental difference here and the "cause" for the disagreement.

I don't think we can ever agree on things if we are coming from different view points on how to "read the rules".

 

[Dracorat]

Fly

A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows:

* Perfect: The creature can perform almost any aerial maneuver it wishes. It moves through the air as well as a human moves over smooth ground.
* Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability.
* Average: The creature can fly as adroitly as a small bird.
* Poor: The creature flies as well as a very large bird.
* Clumsy: The creature can barely maneuver at all.

A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.
Flight (Ex or Su)

A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.
Swim

A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its swim speed without making Swim checks. It has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. The creature can always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. The creature can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

No, the rules quite clearly state that flying is movement through air.

 

[Artoomis]

No, the rules quite clearly state that flying is movement through air.

"A creature with a fly speed can move through the air..."

This give NO guidance for what happens in unusual situations.