Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana Introduces The Artifcer

I don't think anyone saw this coming!

 

[Parmandur]

Yup, we all know this. This is why we are posting in this thread.

Then why bother discussing whether it is "op"? This is to test the concepts, the internal play testing will deal with balance.

 

[Datalore]

This thread is as much about sharing opinions as anything. You don't like mine, so you are questioning the validity of my comment. That is pretty low. I dont see you telling the fans of this class to stop gushing about it and start posting play reports.

Anywho, I will be allowing a nerfed version of this in a Curse of the Crimson Throne conversion I'm running. Again, the flavor is cool and it's a neat concept. I am open to that but this is OP as hell and I just don't see how this doesn't overshadow the rogue without significant modification. Heh, give up 1 or 2 dpr in exchange for consistent damage, at will aoe, and awesome utility and support abilities? Hehe, lol.

Nerfed version I will be using
The magic items they get are on a delayed progression. So, what it says they get at 2 through wondrous invention they get at 5 instead. The original 20th level tier is removed. Also instead of getting superior attunement at 5 and 15, they get it once at 7.

The construct will just be a Clockwork Familiar (like the ones you get from find familiar) that costs 50 gp and 1 day to make or replace. It can be replaced by a mechanical version of one of the Chain Pact Warlock's improved familiars at 11th level (the cost to make/replace this guy is 200 gold). The stuff about it being a construct and not able to be charmed/poisoned applies but like a familiar it can't attack.

Alchemical fire increases in damage to 2d6 at 4 and every 4 levels after that. Alchemical Acid increases in damage at 3 and every 3 levels after.

Thunder Cannon deals 1d6 base damage. It gains a +1 enhancement bonus every 7 levels. Thunder Monger damage increases at 3 and every 3 levels after. Blast wave damage starts at 1d6. Piercing and explosive round damage reduced by 1 die.

 

[Parmandur]

This thread is as much about sharing opinions as anything. You don't like mine, so you are questioning the validity of my comment. That is pretty low. I dont see you telling the fans of this class to stop gushing about it and start posting play reports.



Anywho, I will be allowing a nerfed version of this in a Curse of the Crimson Throne conversion I'm running. Again, the flavor is cool and it's a neat concept. I am open to that but this is OP as hell and I just don't see how this doesn't overshadow the rogue without significant modification. Heh, give up 1 or 2 dpr in exchange for consistent damage, at will aoe, and awesome utility and support abilities? Hehe, lol.



Nerfed version I will be using

The magic items they get are on a delayed progression. So, what it says they get at 2 through wondrous invention they get at 5 instead. The original 20th level tier is removed. Also instead of getting superior attunement at 5 and 15, they get it once at 7.



The construct will just be a Clockwork Familiar (like the ones you get from find familiar) that costs 50 gp and 1 day to make or replace. It can be replaced by a mechanical version of one of the Chain Pact Warlock's improved familiars at 11th level (the cost to make/replace this guy is 200 gold). The stuff about it being a construct and not able to be charmed/poisoned applies but like a familiar it can't attack.



Alchemical fire increases in damage to 2d6 at 4 and every 4 levels after that. Alchemical Acid increases in damage at 3 and every 3 levels after.



Thunder Cannon deals 1d6 base damage. It gains a +1 enhancement bonus every 7 levels. Thunder Monger damage increases at 3 and every 3 levels after. Blast wave damage starts at 1d6. Piercing and explosive round damage reduced by 1 die.

You are perfectly allowed your opinion, but you are bring fairly aggressive about a side issue (numerical balance) which is not really in question at this time. Seems pretty pointless to get combative about an irrelevant point?

 

[Xeviat]

I love the Artificer. Definitely a bit rough around the edges, and I've fiddled with it for my own usage. Bumped it up to a half-caster (it's pretty easy to set up a 5th level list for the Artificer), removed the Mechanical Servant (that would be perfect for a Beastmaster-esque subclass, but I dislike all Artificers getting it), and slightly increased the damage on the existing archetypes to compensate for the loss of the pet.

Really looking forward to seeing a final version in a future crunch book!

I fully agree. Half caster. Remove the Servant. Give it Find Familiar, but mechanical or homunculi, and buff the gun damage slightly so it's more in line with a TWFing or Crossbow Expertise Rogue (since they spend their bonus action every round) and the alchemist so acid matches a short bow rogue better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Datalore]

You are perfectly allowed your opinion, but you are bring fairly aggressive about a side issue (numerical balance) which is not really in question at this time. Seems pretty pointless to get combative about an irrelevant point?

I like the passive aggressive digs at my points. Good use of politely dropped descriptors ("aggressive," "side issue," "point less," and "irrelevant") to pretend you are being polite when are actually being the opposite. Keep on trolling, brother.

 

[Parmandur]

I like the passive aggressive digs at my points. Good use of politely dropped descriptors ("aggressive," "side issue," "point less," and "irrelevant") to pretend you are being polite when are actually being the opposite. Keep on trolling, brother.

Getting in arguments over the mechanical balance of something that is explicitly not mechanically balanced is, indeed, pointless and irrelevant by definition, as it is completely besides the point of discussion; again, no need to be aggressive about it, that's something WotC will address in internal testing after discovering what percentage of the population likes robots buddies or guns.

 

[Datalore]

Getting in arguments over the mechanical balance of something that is explicitly not mechanically balanced is, indeed, pointless and irrelevant by definition, as it is completely besides the point of discussion; again, no need to be aggressive about it, that's something WotC will address in internal testing after discovering what percentage of the population likes robots buddies or guns.

If it's so explicit, everyone would agree on exactly how to change it. Also, if we are posting based on merit alone, this would have one post (the original) and nothing else. But, hey, if you think posts criticizing me for posting a critique of this classes damage somehow hold some kind of intrinsic value that meet your proposed threshold of relevance, by all means, keep trolling.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Anywho, I will be allowing a nerfed version of this in a Curse of the Crimson Throne conversion I'm running. Again, the flavor is cool and it's a neat concept. I am open to that but this is OP as hell and I just don't see how this doesn't overshadow the rogue without significant modification. Heh, give up 1 or 2 dpr in exchange for consistent damage, at will aoe, and awesome utility and support abilities? Hehe, lol.

Nerfed version I will be using
The magic items they get are on a delayed progression. So, what it says they get at 2 through wondrous invention they get at 5 instead. The original 20th level tier is removed. Also instead of getting superior attunement at 5 and 15, they get it once at 7.

The construct will just be a Clockwork Familiar (like the ones you get from find familiar) that costs 50 gp and 1 day to make or replace. It can be replaced by a mechanical version of one of the Chain Pact Warlock's improved familiars at 11th level (the cost to make/replace this guy is 200 gold). The stuff about it being a construct and not able to be charmed/poisoned applies but like a familiar it can't attack.

Alchemical fire increases in damage to 2d6 at 4 and every 4 levels after that. Alchemical Acid increases in damage at 3 and every 3 levels after.

Thunder Cannon deals 1d6 base damage. It gains a +1 enhancement bonus every 7 levels. Thunder Monger damage increases at 3 and every 3 levels after. Blast wave damage starts at 1d6. Piercing and explosive round damage reduced by 1 die.

I'm still trying to understand exactly how this UA as written is so powerful. While yes, the dice they roll seems like a lot, I find it very comparable to other classes.

The big comparison seems to be the rogue, so I'll keep up that trend.

First of all, in actual play, I have seen a rogue unable to use sneak attack... once I think. And in that circumstance it was entirely the players fault, as he snuck off and tried to clear a building by himself. Otherwise, I have never seen a rogue unable to get off sneak attack as there is always an ally next to an enemy that they can attack. It may not be guaranteed, but it is often enough that I just assume Rogues of all stripes and fighting styles will sneak attack.

At-will AOE is very nice, but it has been done before with the sun soul monk, and the Alchemist AOE is very small. In addition, they have to be quite close to be able to utilize it, meaning it is quite possible for the Artificer to launch their AOE, and very quickly end up in melee with mutliple attackers. And let's look at the damage 4d6 fire damage by 7th level, with a dex save for no damage. On average you may hit 3 enemies with it, but any class with AOE ability (ie any full caster) blows this out of the water. Granted this is an at-will capability, but in practice most spellcasters by 7th level that I've seen don't run out of their large and devastating AOEs before they've gotten a lot more mileage. While on the single target side, classes like the Warlock or Ranger are shooting from farther and doing more damage (Ranger hunter by 7th level is easily pulling 3d8+1d6+4 a round). If the AOE was much weaker than it is, I'd think it would border on useless. It is a useful ability, I just don't think it outshines it's competition.

Gunsmith has very good range and single target damage, but doesn't start getting their AOEs until 9th level, and I find their AOEs to be mostly unimpressive. Their force cone is essentially a weaker version of Thunderwave, a first level spell. By 9th level most casters are tossing 3rd level spells as their standards, with 4th and 5th as the big guns (going of memory).

You talk a lot about massive utility and support. I don't see it really. As a 1/3 caster by 9th level they have 4 1st level spells and 2 second level spells. They have good spells, and the ability to pre-cast a spell 8 hours before it is needed, which is quite nice, but most full-casters have been using these same utility spells for a while and as a supporter to the rest of the party, I see no problem with it. Beyond those spells, they will have 2 magic items.

Now, this is heavily game dependent, but I've been in games where the DM didn't want to deal with encumbrance and gave everyone a Bag of Holding at 1st level. It was barely noticeable. The list of 2nd level items is cool, a hands-free torch, darkvision (or enhancing your darkvision since most PCs have darkvision anyways), breathing underwater, or having a walkie talkie. I see good use that can be made of these items, there is no doubt about that. But not a single one of these things is something I would be worried about a 2nd or 3rd level party finding in a goblin cave.

Again, if they were useless, no one would want to play the class, but these are just useful, I don't see the immense power that has you so worried. Except for the CR 2 pet, the more I think about, the more I agree that is too much. Remove it or turn it into a familiar and I think everything else falls into place very nicely.

I say that, because the Artificer has 1 very glaring weak point to my eye. Defense. Their spell casting can assist a little bit, but they have Medium armor and no shield, and they are not necessarily a Dex-based class. Look at the other d8 classes. Rogue and Ranger get defensive abilities like uncanny dodge or evasion. Clerics generally get heavy armor, and much more robust support casting, Warlocks (especially fiendlocks) have a lot of ways to get temp hp and punish enemies for attacking them.

The Alchemist has some extra healing, and maybe a trick or two if he's being chased, but until they start getting into levels 15 and beyond, they really get nothing to help them survive being attacked or get away, other than the spellcasting, which are the same tricks wizards and warlocks get, only later and a lot fewer.

They aren't a useless class, obviously, but I think an Artificer in a group with a Wizard, Warlock, Rogue and Fighter is not going to be seen as the most powerful character on the team. Barring that CR 2 pet, they just don't get enough that is going to overshadow anyone, unless I'm missing something

 

[Parmandur]

If it's so explicit, everyone would agree on exactly how to change it. Also, if we are posting based on merit alone, this would have one post (the original) and nothing else. But, hey, if you think posts criticizing me for posting a critique of this classes damage somehow hold some kind of intrinsic value that meet your proposed threshold of relevance, by all means, keep trolling.

It is explicit in the description of the article that this is a draft, and WotC is going after impressions, not detailed math (they do that in controlled playtests). No need to get so mad at folks.

 

[fuindordm]

The Alchemist has some extra healing, and maybe a trick or two if he's being chased, but until they start getting into levels 15 and beyond, they really get nothing to help them survive being attacked or get away, other than the spellcasting, which are the same tricks wizards and warlocks get, only later and a lot fewer.

I think that this is what their spells/infusions are for, but they don't get very many of them. And if they spend all of their slots just keeping themselves alive through mid levels, it is a problem.

I think the class would work well if it had more emphasis on infusions (and a much faster spellcasting progression), and less emphasis on the pet and the techno-attack. In my mind, the artificer should be as much of a magician as the wizard, but with a focus on creating devices that anyone can use. With more spell slots, they can both defend themselves and help the party.

Ben