Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana: Psionics and Mystics Take Two

February's Unearthed Arcana article from WotC's Mike Mearls has been posted. This time around, the topic is psionics again "This month, Unearthed Arcana returns to the mystic character class and the rules for psionics. Based on the playtest feedback you sent us, there are a number of changes you can expect." The article expands the Mystic class to 10th level, and adds a variety of new options.

February's Unearthed Arcana article from WotC's Mike Mearls has been posted. This time around, the topic is psionics again "This month, Unearthed Arcana returns to the mystic character class and the rules for psionics. Based on the playtest feedback you sent us, there are a number of changes you can expect." The article expands the Mystic class to 10th level, and adds a variety of new options.

Find the article right here.
 

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Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
I guess it's your game and you can play Diana Moon Glampers if you want to, but I really don't see any reason for doing this. Like I said, "just call it a 'known outlier' if you like and then move on, unless it actually breaks the game."
The reason it needs to be changed is because it pushes out all other spells. We played a campaign from 1 to 15. At 15, 60% of all spells being cast were still fireball.

Everytime someone went up a level and got new spells they said "Alright, 4th level spells! Hmm...nothing here is better at doing damage than fireball. That sucks. I guess I'll just pick a couple of random things in case I need them."

My character who was a bard got pressured by the rest of the group for 5 levels because I could take spells from other classes and I didn't take fireball, which was obviously superior to all other spells and not taking it was stupid. I resisted for the longest time because I didn't envision my character as the kind who would toss fireballs around. But after a while, I felt so useless because I'd do 20 damage in a round and the fireball would do 140 (average damage to 5 enemies).

So, when I started a game, I decided to see what happens if fireball does only 6d6 points of damage. Would other spells get picked again? I haven't figured out the answer to my question yet since everyone in that campaign is still level 4. But soon.
 

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The reason it needs to be changed is because it pushes out all other spells. We played a campaign from 1 to 15. At 15, 60% of all spells being cast were still fireball.

Everytime someone went up a level and got new spells they said "Alright, 4th level spells! Hmm...nothing here is better at doing damage than fireball. That sucks. I guess I'll just pick a couple of random things in case I need them."
I like that fireball remains a staple spell throughout a wizard's career. It sure beats 4E where spells go obsolete in five levels or so.

Also, out of curiosity: do you play on a map or theater-of-the-mind? Because I think fireball may be less of an all-purpose damage spell on a map where you have to actually find a place for that big huge 20-foot radius.

My character who was a bard got pressured by the rest of the group for 5 levels because I could take spells from other classes and I didn't take fireball, which was obviously superior to all other spells and not taking it was stupid. I resisted for the longest time because I didn't envision my character as the kind who would toss fireballs around. But after a while, I felt so useless because I'd do 20 damage in a round and the fireball would do 140 (average damage to 5 enemies).
I've got a bard too. No fireball. My group doesn't care. Just because the other players think fireball is the only good choice and are being jerks about it doesn't make it true. Cast revivify on one and ask if they'd still rather you had blown their sorry corpse up with fireball instead.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
I like that fireball remains a staple spell throughout a wizard's career. It sure beats 4E where spells go obsolete in five levels or so.
But ALL spells should remain a staple, not just one. I should have a reason to cast Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Ice Storm, or Shatter when I'm level 10. Especially if I'm using a 5th level slot to cast them. But I don't have any reason to do that because I could be casting a fireball instead, which is better 80% of the time.

Also, out of curiosity: do you play on a map or theater-of-the-mind? Because I think fireball may be less of an all-purpose damage spell on a map where you have to actually find a place for that big huge 20-foot radius.
We used them both during that campaign. But you'd be surprised how easy it is to fit it most of the time. It's a 20 foot radius, but nothing says what happens to the portion that gets cut off by walls. Back in 2e, when it would expand to fill the same volume, it was dangerous and I'd avoid casting it if at all possible. But now, we open the door to a 20 by 20 foot room filled with monsters, we go first, we put the focus point of the fireball at the back of the room, affecting everyone in the room and none of us. If that doesn't work, we throw the second or third fireball. Most battles ended without attack rolls being rolled by the enemy. Our Wizard also had the class feature that let him exclude squares when he cast it, so he could often skip the 2 or 3 of us that were in the fireball radius when he cast it.

I've got a bard too. No fireball. My group doesn't care. Just because the other players think fireball is the only good choice and are being jerks about it doesn't make it true. Cast revivify on one and ask if they'd still rather you had blown their sorry corpse up with fireball instead.
No one ever died during that campaign. Revivify would have taken up a slot for no benefit.

They don't just think it. They back it up, with numbers. It does 8d6 points of damage. Do that to 4 targets who have a 50% chance of saving and you average 84 damage. Cast a Magic Missile using a 3rd level slot and you do 17.5 points of damage. A Burning Hands using a 3rd level slot against 4 people(if you can manage to fit 4 people in there) does 52.5 damage on average. An Ice Storm (which uses a 4th level slot) against 4 creatures does 69 damage on average(It should be noted that if you use the 4th level slot up on fireball, it increases the average to 94.5).

But, you're thinking: Sure, good against 4 people. What if there's only one enemy? Fireball averages 21 damage against one target. A 3rd level Magic Missile is 17.5 damage. Burning Hands 13.125. Ice Storm 17.25. Scorching Ray 12.6 (with a 60% chance to hit).

Basically, if you want to do damage fireball is ALWAYS the best spell. The only time it isn't a good idea is if you are in a tactical situation that means you'll hit a bunch of your allies. We also did the math on that and figured out that it was worth hitting at least one ally if that meant hitting 4+ enemies, since the fireball was negating the damage done by those enemies that we we still doing less to our party than they would have.

Yes, there are situations where fireball is not the best option. Which is why you know a bunch of other spells as backups. But as written, fireball is way too powerful. Lowering its damage to 6d6 still puts it ahead of all the spells lower level than it and makes Ice Storm do about 0.5 damage more on average than fireball. Ideally, it would do 5d6 points of damage to keep the curve fairly balanced.
 
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Hussar

Legend
Out of curiosity, fireball, and lightning bolt, are outside the normal math for spells. Are they the only ones? Aren't most of the spells in the PHB following the guidelines in the DMG.

And, if that's true, doesn't that by definition make them outliers and not what we should be basing mechanics on? A pair of 3rd level spells breaking the rules is basically bad writing. Do other 3rd level spells also break the rules in a similar way for other Schools of Magic? What 3rd level spell breaks the damage or effects guidelines for, say, an Abjurer or a Conjurer?

Why should we base a new class on the mistakes of an old class?
 

Mephista

Adventurer
But ALL spells should remain a staple, not just one. I should have a reason to cast Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Ice Storm, or Shatter when I'm level 10. Especially if I'm using a 5th level slot to cast them. But I don't have any reason to do that because I could be casting a fireball instead, which is better 80% of the time.
Then you need more variety in your antagonists, or a change in thinking. Because I continue to use Magic Missile, Ice Storm, Lightning Bolt and Ice Storm on fairly regular basis up til around level 11 or so, when my games die out. Not so much Burning Hands, but that's always been a quickly dropped spell for me, no matter the edition. I have kept it may times, however, just in case of the event of rodent or insect swarms. And I don't think I've ever actually played an Evoker either.

I've also played Bards fairly frequently, and I am honestly of the opinion that, if you are expected to cast fireball as a bard? Then you are playing the bard suboptimally.
 
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Basically, if you want to do damage fireball is ALWAYS the best spell.
As you go on to note, the word "always" is hyperbolic. But more important is the word "if". Yes, fireball is very good at what it does: damage. If your character is a blaster mage this spell should be in his or her arsenal. And I don't see the problem with that. It's the spell for throwing a ball of fire at the enemy, which is what most blaster mages in most media spend most of their time doing. (And what they're doing the rest of the time, throwing bolts of lightning, also deals 8d6 damage.) But not all mages are blaster mages. Sometimes mages want to do things other than raw damage.

Yes, there are situations where fireball is not the best option. Which is why you know a bunch of other spells as backups. But as written, fireball is way too powerful. Lowering its damage to 6d6 still puts it ahead of all the spells lower level than it and makes Ice Storm do about 0.5 damage more on average than fireball. Ideally, it would do 5d6 points of damage to keep the curve fairly balanced.
Ice storm is a hybrid spell with a decent crowd-control effect on top of its damage. It doesn't need to "curve" off of fireball; they serve different purposes. (And together, they don't make for a half bad one-two punch.)




And, if that's true, doesn't that by definition make them outliers...
You can call them that if you like.

...and not what we should be basing mechanics on?
No. You can't make something good or bad by defining the term for it that way. You have to actually demonstrate why it's good or bad. Look at what @Majoru Oakheart is saying. I'm disagreeing with him at points, but he is giving concrete reasons for why he thinks fireball is bad for the game, and that's the correct approach.

As for outliers and class design, I've already given my opinion: "every casting class can (and should) have some of what you call 'known outliers' on its spell list to represent the class' relative strengths and weaknesses in different areas of magic."

A pair of 3rd level spells breaking the rules is basically bad writing.
Did you know the original pitch for Magic: The Gathering was "the game where every card breaks the rules"? (I may be paraphrasing a bit.) Is M:tG a badly written game? Over the past couple of decades, game designers have grown increasingly aware that judicious rule-breaking is not just tolerable, but actively beneficial for many games.

What 3rd level spell breaks the damage or effects guidelines for, say, an Abjurer or a Conjurer?
What if I said that revivify was way ahead of the curve for the cleric, because wizard conjurers can't do anything like it at 3rd level (or any level)?

Why should we base a new class on the mistakes of an old class?
You have yet to establish that fireball is a "mistake".
 

Hussar

Legend
Well, I'd say fireball (and lightning bolt) are mistakes because, unlike every other evocation spell in the game (AFAIK) they break the spell creation guidelines. And there's no reason for them to do so. There's no particular reason why a fireball has to do 8d6 and not 6d6. Why was it up gunned? Why are there not similar up gunned spells for every other School of Magic?

You use the example of Revivify. Well, now you're comparing apples to oranges. Wizards do not gain any healing spells, so, we can't really compare wizard schools to cleric can we? That's like saying Cure Light Wounds is better than Magic Missile. Different, true, but, I'd hardly say better.

But, is Revivify out of place as a 3rd level spell? Well, Raise Dead is 5th and is far more flexible. Death Ward is 4th and can be cast as a buff and not only prevents death, but also may negate a whole boatload of damage. So, I'd say Revivify fits the bill pretty well. It's on par with effects that you get at 3rd spell level. In what way is it up gunned from other 3rd level effects?

IOW, basing a classes effects on the "known outliers" is bad game design. You design the game to the specifications of the game and then maybe, start breaking the rules if you need to.

But, your point of "every casting class can (and should) have some of what you call 'known outliers' on its spell list to represent the class' relative strengths and weaknesses in different areas of magic."

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?476818-Unearthed-Arcana-Psionics-and-Mystics-Take-Two/page31#ixzz40Nvuo8aB" doesn't really follow unless every spell casting class has known outliers. Ok, Evokers do. Fair enough. What are the outliers for a Conjurer? Illusionist? Abjurer? What spell on the Cleric list stands out from the other spells on the cleric list as being higher powered than the other spells of the same level?

All you've shown is that a single School of Magic has a "known outlier". What are the others?
 

Well, I'd say fireball (and lightning bolt) are mistakes because, unlike every other evocation spell in the game (AFAIK) they break the spell creation guidelines. And there's no reason for them to do so.

There is a reason, and I'd say it is a good reason. Fireball and lightning bolt were standard go-to spells in AD&D and BECMI that any wizard who wasn't barred from casting (or specifically avoiding for concept reasons) used as a part of their arsenal. They were like longswords or longbows. 3e lost that element, and the spells became pretty underwhelming choices. I believe one of the goals here is to recapture that place of prominence for those spells by making them very enticing options.

Now, whether or not that was sufficient reason, I can't say. I definitely like the result of encouraging usage of these iconic spells, and I don't know if there was a better way to accomplish it without pushing their power as far as they did.
 

Well, I'd say fireball (and lightning bolt) are mistakes because, unlike every other evocation spell in the game (AFAIK) they break the spell creation guidelines. And there's no reason for them to do so. There's no particular reason why a fireball has to do 8d6 and not 6d6. Why was it up gunned? Why are there not similar up gunned spells for every other School of Magic?
"There's no reason for X" does not imply "X is bad". All you're doing here is subtly shifting the burden of proof. When you're the one complaining about fireball, it's your onus to discredit it, not my onus to justify it. Again, look at what Majoru is saying: "8d6 fireball is bad because it hurts my gameplay in these specific ways."

Wizards do not gain any healing spells, so, we can't really compare wizard schools to cleric can we?
Then why are we comparing the psion to the wizard? When the wizard gets no healing spells at all, that's simply the extreme of this differing-power-budgets thing I'm talking about. If we added some wizard healing spells, but they were let's say half as powerful as cleric healing, would this make the wizard suddenly underpowered? Of course not.

What spell on the Cleric list stands out from the other spells on the cleric list as being higher powered than the other spells of the same level?
On the same class list? That's not what we're talking about.

All you've shown is that a single School of Magic has a "known outlier". What are the others?
I actually just happened to run into one preparing for a session today: divination is a level lower but considerably better than contact other plane. It's not a complete apples-to-apples comparison, but if I were a bard looking to choose a question-answering spell I know which one I'd pick.

In general, though, evocation is the easiest school in which to notice a "curve" and "known outliers", because damage is simply a number, and you can easily compare a number to another number. The other schools tend to have spells that produce qualitatively different effects. How do we define a curve for transmutations?
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
As you go on to note, the word "always" is hyperbolic. But more important is the word "if". Yes, fireball is very good at what it does: damage. If your character is a blaster mage this spell should be in his or her arsenal. And I don't see the problem with that. It's the spell for throwing a ball of fire at the enemy, which is what most blaster mages in most media spend most of their time doing. (And what they're doing the rest of the time, throwing bolts of lightning, also deals 8d6 damage.) But not all mages are blaster mages. Sometimes mages want to do things other than raw damage.
But I'm not comparing with non damaging spells for a reason. If you are a blaster mage, then you want blaster spells. And you want more than one of them. Fireball makes that impossible by making all choices but one completely suboptimal. No one takes lightning bolt because it has to start from you and shoot forward. It only affects people in a line and, most of the time, when you enter a room the enemy is not standing in one. Casters also like to stay at the back of the party and that often means lightning bolt will hit ALL of your allies if you cast it(or you have to move to the front, putting yourself in danger). It wasn't even a consideration for most people in our group because its disadvantages outweigh its damage. Which is why I didn't lower its damage when I houseruled fireball.

Fireball doesn't have JUST damage going for it. It also has a huge area and it has a huge range. Both of which are things that should be considered when balancing a spell. A spell with huge area and huge range should actually do LESS damage than equivalent spells at its level to make up the difference.

Ice storm is a hybrid spell with a decent crowd-control effect on top of its damage. It doesn't need to "curve" off of fireball; they serve different purposes. (And together, they don't make for a half bad one-two punch.)
It creates difficult terrain...for one round....which is a VERY minor benefit. Over 80% of the time the enemy doesn't care about moving at all or still has enough movement to get where they want to go. If I'm using a 4th level slot up, then it should do as much damage as a fireball increased to 4th level. Because when I get a new spell for going up a level, it should be BETTER than the spells that came before it. And it IS better than magic missile, scorching ray, burning hands and shatter and probably better than lightning bolt(its versatility makes up for the lower damage). But it isn't better than fireball because of the inexplicable raising of its damage at the last minute.

Did you know the original pitch for Magic: The Gathering was "the game where every card breaks the rules"? (I may be paraphrasing a bit.) Is M:tG a badly written game? Over the past couple of decades, game designers have grown increasingly aware that judicious rule-breaking is not just tolerable, but actively beneficial for many games.
You are using that term poorly. Magic: The Gathering works because they avoid outliers like crazy. They have a VERY detailed spreadsheet they use when creating their cards that give points for certain benefits. For the first couple of sets they didn't have the formula worked out yet. Which is why the first couple of sets contain cards that are worth hundreds(or thousands) of dollars because they are CLEARLY better than all other cards that do similar things. It was bad enough for the game that WOTC had to invent a tournament format that said "You can't play with old cards" because those people with the old cards were winning 95% of the time.

The reason Magic is a game where every card breaks the rules is because each of them is an exception to the normal rules: For example, the normal rule is you can only attack once. But there is a card that lets you attack twice. Which breaks the rules. However, you can be assured that the cost of that card was carefully balanced against all the other cards in the game to be sure that it wasn't more powerful.

Every once in a while a card slips through the cracks and is way too powerful. The formula doesn't cover certain things. But WOTC quickly works to remove the offending cards from tournament play in order to make sure the game stays fun for everyone.

The point is that spells in D&D already break the rules. They let you do things you can't normally do(like shoot fireballs). That's great and that's what their role should be. But they need to be balanced against each other. Otherwise you end up in a situation like existed before WOTC created "Type 2" tournaments in Magic: Those with the fireballs win. Everyone else loses.

What if I said that revivify was way ahead of the curve for the cleric, because wizard conjurers can't do anything like it at 3rd level (or any level)?
When comparing power, you must always compare like to like. Cleric spells do different things than Wizard spells. Clerics heal, bring people back to life, and cure bad effects on people. Wizards don't generally get those abilities(to preserve class uniqueness). Hussar does some good analysis above, but Revivify is a perfect reasonable spell at 3rd level compared to the levels of other spells that bring people back to life in the cleric list.
 

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