Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana: Psionics and Mystics Take Two

February's Unearthed Arcana article from WotC's Mike Mearls has been posted. This time around, the topic is psionics again "This month, Unearthed Arcana returns to the mystic character class and the rules for psionics. Based on the playtest feedback you sent us, there are a number of changes you can expect." The article expands the Mystic class to 10th level, and adds a variety of new options.

Find the article right here.

 

[SailorNash]

I really wish this thread could be split in one crunch thread and one fluff thread.

Actually, I was thinking the same and started a new thread about an hour or so ago, before reading the latest updates here. Though I was more curious about the ability flavor themselves, rather than the backstory flavor. Feel free to chip in!

 

[bogmad]

The question is "what is the great psychic origin story?" I don't want to badmouth anyone, but all the ones so far are basically stolen from other classes:
... Studies really hard? The wizard, the monk, and the bard can claim that.

By that logic the wizard, the monk, and the bard have a problem in that they are all using the same story...

I think "Studies really hard" isn't specific enough that any class would lay claim to it. It's the discipline they're studying. And esoteric powers of the mind is enough for me. Wizards are studying really hard the esoteric powers of arcane magic or the weave or whatever.

Say what you want about the far realms, but a far realms sorcerer would be infused with the powers of the far realms, whereas a psion is just exposed and his mind is expanded by the exposure to greater possibilities. That may be a pretty thin distinction, but not as much as "studies really hard"

 

[procproc]

Assuming nothing wacky happens at level 11+, structurally, the psion is a full caster operating off spell points like in the DMG, making them more in line with a sorcerer than a warlock. They have a good basic schtick in lethal strike, but combat wise they arent essentially eldritch blast on legs like a warlock. They get basically the same PSP's and power picks as the awakened mind, so they'll be tossing out implosions at 17th level as well. They shouldnt equal a hybrid warrior type in melee because they far excel them in casting.... err psioning.

It wasnt the extra attack I was necessarily taking issue with (I think favored souls get it too), it was comparing them to a hybrid half caster/half warrior, or expecting them to get significantly less power points than an awakened mind to pay for significantly ramped up combat abilities. They cant do that with the current class chassis, at least easily.

Yeah, Warlock is weird because the casting changes fundamentally at lvl 11-20. It's difficult to know how this changes when we have a full 20 level progression, possibly with additional disciplines, so I'm basing this on the "capstone" abilities being the 7 point usage for each of these disciplines. If the plan is for Immortal to get full access to 9th level spell-equivalents, then it may be a problem -- though it might not, as that still puts it on par with a Warlock.

Right now, I think Valor Bard and Bladelock are the closest bases for comparison out of the core book for what the Immortal seems to be trying to achieve, but it doesn't seem like the balance is quite right. The Lore bard gets access to additional spells as its subclass ability. Maybe the base number of disciplines known should be lower, and the Awakened could receive some additional bonus disciplines to give it broader access to powers? That seems fitting.

Incidentally, my own experience with a fiend pact bladelock is that at 6th level, I'm serving as the party's main tank and throwing more fireballs per day than the wizard, on account of recovering per short rest. I don't know that Immortal having a larger allotment of points per long rest really means that's it's more of a sorcerer than a warlock, but again, it's hard to say with only 10 levels to work with.

It does make the most sense to tie it to an immortal subclass feature than a power that the awakened mind can use. I had thought about expending focus to get an extra attack, but that's really fiddly remembering that "hey, normally I have a +1 to hit from psi weapon's focus, except for my extra attack and any AOO's I make until I regain it at the start of my turn." It they capped Lethal Strike at maybe 3PSP per strike (vs the 5 it is now IIRC), I think just giving them extra attack would work OK. Maybe just replace their d8 bonus damage with that, or move the d8 to a later level?

Yeah, I think just substituting Extra Attack for Cunning Resonance would be fine. It's probably not too much to get both -- as I mentioned, the Paladin gets that -- but it seems like the Mystic will have more overall flexibility (and caster power) than the Paladin, so I'd prefer to err on the side of not-power-creep. Part of the reason for suggesting the "only when focused on an Immortal discipline" was because there really isn't much mechanical impact of which subtype the discipline is, and I'd prefer there were a bit more "zing" to the discipline subtypes.

I wonder if it makes sense to scale Lethal Strike to +1d10/2PP spent. The scaling of spell levels into PP makes the math end up a little weird; at +d10/PP, you effectively get +2d10 for a 1st level spell slot, which makes you much better than the Paladin at the smiting game, which seems like a problem. At +d10/2PP, you're only slightly better than the Paladin smite, but you run into the awkward situation of not being able to use a 2nd level spell equivalent to smite with. I think I'd be okay with capping it at +5d10, but upping the cost on the attacks.

And since other people have mentioned Consumptive Power being weird and badly balanced, I'd love it if it simply moved to working like the Land Druid's recovery ability: on a short rest, you regain PP equal to your Psi Limit. Change the name to something like "Meditative Recovery" and done.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

By that logic the wizard, the monk, and the bard have a problem in that they are all using the same story...

I think "Studies really hard" isn't specific enough that any class would lay claim to it. It's the discipline they're studying. And esoteric powers of the mind is enough for me. Wizards are studying really hard the esoteric powers of arcane magic or the weave or whatever.

Say what you want about the far realms, but a far realms sorcerer would be infused with the powers of the far realms, whereas a psion is just exposed and his mind is expanded by the exposure to greater possibilities. That may be a pretty thin distinction, but not as much as "studies really hard"

I appreciate your argument, but an old car with a fancy new paint job is still an old car (and I will freely admit it is a pretty fancy paint job). Let me try this a different way: is there an elevator pitch for a story where a mystic is a much more compelling lead then any other class? Let's limit it to 5 sentences with no tedious bullet points or checklists. If we want to answer the question of "what should a mystic be?", a couple of these elevator pitches should go a long way to answering that.

 

[bogmad]

I appreciate your argument, but an old car with a fancy new paint job is still an old car (and I will freely admit it is a pretty fancy paint job). Let me try this a different way: is there an elevator pitch for a story where a mystic is a much more compelling lead then any other class? Let's limit it to 5 sentences with no tedious bullet points or checklists. If we want to answer the question of "what should a mystic be?", a couple of these elevator pitches should go a long way to answering that.

Default D&D assumption story or a more "exotic" campaign?
Easy enough. Though most stories I think are able to be told with a variety of classes. It doesn't make any one story better, it just flavors the story differently. While I might find that psionic flavored story more compelling than you do, I'm sure you could just shut it down by disagreeing with my preferences. It's a hard argument to win!

But even recognizing the futility here's some pitches

In a world inundated with magic, a new kind of power has arisen outside the weave and dominion of the gods. Spiritually and politically it has threatened the status quo, as it stresses the power of the individual mind itself unfettered, without any exotic energy or granted boons; also, by not interacting with traditional magic, it thus proves near impossible to subvert via the regular and understood esoteric institutions. It also makes [your character] a target, but undaunted [you] strive to make your way in the world.

A spy who needs to infiltrate a magic school or otherworldly arcane space without being tracked or detected. A little fiddly, since you could argue other classes can do this story just fine, but Eberron has already proven that psionics can go well with noir.

Could just say "Dark Sun" and leave it at that.

 

[bogmad]

But I may have lost the thread of the argument we were having in the first place, I'll admit.

Are we back to arguing for the existence of the psion/mystic as a class at all? I thought we were past that.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Yeah, I think just substituting Extra Attack for Cunning Resonance would be fine. It's probably not too much to get both -- as I mentioned, the Paladin gets that -- but it seems like the Mystic will have more overall flexibility (and caster power) than the Paladin, so I'd prefer to err on the side of not-power-creep. Part of the reason for suggesting the "only when focused on an Immortal discipline" was because there really isn't much mechanical impact of which subtype the discipline is, and I'd prefer there were a bit more "zing" to the discipline subtypes.

In play, I would anticipate the Immortal gets more mileage out of mystic recovery than the awakened mind. He's more likely to be in melee, and take more damage, therefore have more opportunities to heal. Tying extra attack to being focused in a particular way is the kind of thing people are likely to forget about (at least 3/5 of my table would). Moreover, its not like the Awakened mind needs to be focused in one of their disciplines to get their basic functionality. Its pigeonholing the Immortal into being focused in one way (though given the perks, that's fairly likely anyways).

I wonder if it makes sense to scale Lethal Strike to +1d10/2PP spent. The scaling of spell levels into PP makes the math end up a little weird; at +d10/PP, you effectively get +2d10 for a 1st level spell slot, which makes you much better than the Paladin at the smiting game, which seems like a problem. At +d10/2PP, you're only slightly better than the Paladin smite, but you run into the awkward situation of not being able to use a 2nd level spell equivalent to smite with. I think I'd be okay with capping it at +5d10, but upping the cost on the attacks.

5PP's = a 3rd level spell.+5d10 damage is roughly on par I think. Maybe drop the damage to d8? Doubling the cost is too much of a hit, particularly given that we are likely to see other attack powers (pyrokinesis) which will either blow the nerfed lethal strike out of the water in terms of damage per PP, or make the mystic a crappy damage class outside of combos/builds with a third level power equivalent dealing around 3d10 damage.

I still think capping the point expenditure to maybe 3 per strike is the best solution. It prevents mass dumping on a crit for 10d10 damage, limits off turn attack damage, etc. This can be done within the power itself, with no tweak to how power points are spent in general. It also lets them make a greater version or high science or whatever their upper tier abilities are going to be called.

And since other people have mentioned Consumptive Power being weird and badly balanced, I'd love it if it simply moved to working like the Land Druid's recovery ability: on a short rest, you regain PP equal to your Psi Limit. Change the name to something like "Meditative Recovery" and done.

I wish the mystic was more of a short rest class anyways. I wouldnt mind them significantly lowering the number of PP's and letting you get your proposed meditative recovery multiple times per day.

 

[zaratan]

Psychic Backlash let me impose desadvantage after the attack was made (the dice rolled)?

 

[I'm A Banana]

The question is "what is the great psychic origin story?" I don't want to badmouth anyone, but all the ones so far are basically stolen from other classes:

Exposed to the Far Realm? Basically the Chaos Sorcerer story (exposed to something, gets powers) Spontaneously develops powers? I am pretty sure all the sorcerers should get together and sue for gimmick infringement. Studies really hard? The wizard, the monk, and the bard can claim that.

It seems like we need something more specifically psychic/mystic as the base story.

I agree; even the given origin story basically is like a monk (seeking some sort of perfection), but with tentacles thrown in the mix.


[sblock]
One idea I personally tossed around last time this came up and thought was kind of interesting is the idea of psionics being old, lost traditions, something more Greco-Roman or Indus Valley or Ancient Mediterranean. This jives with the aberration element (nothin' older than the Elder Things; plenty of lost civilizations paid homage to them), the planar element (immortal, timeless beings), the Dark-Sun-Mutant element (rampant nature evolves these powerful abilities lost to the creatures of this age), the pseudo-science element ("we're discovering ways that the Ancients used their minds that have been lost to us for centuries!"), the Dream World element (the primordial, powerful first dreamings)....

The narrative involves plumbing the ancient depths of ruins and fallen empires long-forgotten to uncover strange and dangerous practices that may have even lead to that destruction (Dark Sun twists this so that the tradition is discovered and known but still held by and elite and might yet bring the fall of today's empires). Strange angels of your far-flung ancestors guide you to lands once tamed by powerful mentalists, now fallen.

The mechanics involve uncovering unseen knowledge, bodily practices that are intense and ritualistic, manipulating minds with a word, even stepping between worlds - things the Ancients could do, lost to all but the most learned of sages today, which you will re-discover. You will also re-discover the dangers that this brought.

The enemies that are most iconic are golems, undead, beasts and oozes and other mindless creatures - they are resilient to your mental commands, they are the things that rule this once-noble land now, memories and savagery.

This narrative is close cousin to the Warlock and the Wizard, but there's not a specific entity involved, and rather than knowledge and lore, it's about practices and transformation.

The subclass themes are about different lost traditions, lost empires, lost kingdoms - you seek out remnants of these lands to learn more about them and the unusual powers they had. And you could have a subclass focused on a particular tradition from a civilization that died from piercing the veil between worlds and letting in things from beyond the stars. Importantly, you could also have a subclass focused on a tradition from a civilization that was a grand eternal peace (imposed via charms and domination) and was lost when the mindless golems overthrew their masters, or a tradition of great and powerful warriors whose control over their body twisted them into monsters (that eventually obliterated the civilization).

In FR, imagine psionic traditions dating from ancient Netheril, or the Calim empire - or any of the other literal "Forgotten Realms."

But that's just one idear.
[/sblock]

Let me try this a different way: is there an elevator pitch for a story where a mystic is a much more compelling lead then any other class?

I'm quite fond of that little thought experiment!

In my hypothetical narrative above, it would be that the mystic is a student of the Old Ways, long forgotten traditions that once powered great civilizations, and they seek to master them. Perhaps they seek to bring them back and relive the ancient glory days, or maybe they must master these to confront a resurgent threat from long ago, or perhaps a driven curiosity allows them to unlock old traditions abandoned as heretical and dangerous. The powers of the mind are more ancient and foundational than any spellcraft studied today.

In WotC's current narrative it seems that mystics seek self-perfection, because the tentacled horrors from beyond the stars left ripples in the pond of reality that resulted in your abilities.

I would expect that the mechanics based around that would have strong Law/Chaos elements, with the practitioners seeking mastery over a fundamentally wild force. The risk of madness should be real and ever-present, and the mystic would always be looking beyond the next horizon to understand the unusual abilities they've been sadled with. Wild mage mechanics might work OK as a starting point.

The mechanics as they exist suggest a character whose power arises from knowing foundational bits of power that they can enhance - one of them takes it in a "sage" direction, the other in a "warrior" direction. The mystic as a protagonist is a specialist, who has discovered a few tricks and applies them. They either learn how to manipulate others' minds, or they learn how to control their own bodies. This perhaps reflects an outside/inside dichotomy - maybe characters based off of an extrovert/introvert character type. The goal is to discover new psychic powers (this is what they do as they gain levels), which means whatever origin these powers have is something that this character wants to get very intimate with. That these are called "disciplines" points at a character who is fundamentally lawful, imposing their own order on themselves, or those around them.

To help these mechanics match their proposed narrative better would mean more madness, more horror, more "what happens when you push beyond your limits?" elements.

 

[Trance]

it's a reaction, so the target that attacks you has disadvantage on his attack.