Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana Revisits Psionics

The latest Unearthed Arcana from WotC revisits some psionic rules! “Shine with the power of the mind in this installment of Unearthed Arcana! Today we revisit several psi-themed options that we released in the past few months. Studying your feedback on those options, we’ve crafted this new collection of subclasses, spells, and feats, found in the PDF below.“...

The latest Unearthed Arcana from WotC revisits some psionic rules! “Shine with the power of the mind in this installment of Unearthed Arcana! Today we revisit several psi-themed options that we released in the past few months. Studying your feedback on those options, we’ve crafted this new collection of subclasses, spells, and feats, found in the PDF below.“

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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Or 5e! Giving up on the Mystic doesn't equal giving up on Psions. Even if it did, WotC flip-flops more than a fish out of water, so...
No, I meant that if you thought Dark Sun was dead in 5E because the psion was, then that you always had 3E if you wanted to play Dark Sun "correctly". :)
 

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They kind of do say that, without explicitly saying that, you know?

In 2017, we experimented with an unofficial character class—the mystic—focused on psionic powers. Through its features and subclasses, the mystic allowed you to create a character who echoed the abilities of other classes in the game but with a psionic twist. As much as many playtesters enjoyed the psionic themes in the mystic, feedback was also clear that the class encroached on other classes’ territory and that it was often too complex, too powerful, or both. Following that feedback, we’ve decided to say farewell to the mystic and explore other ways of giving players psi-themed powers, as we did with the features of the Great Old One warlock in the Player’s Handbook.

They don't exactly say "people hated it" but they are saying "we got enough feedback to show it wasn't worth pursuing anymore." Which does essentially mean the feedback was too negative to consider the mystic worth saving.

I don't think the quote supports your thesis, indeed "As much as many playtesters enjoyed the psionic themes in the mystic" rather strongly suggests that the feedback related to the actual idea of the Mystic was generally positive, and the negative comments are clearly mechanics-related (too powerful, too complex). The encroachment point is totally non-viable. Even if that's the feedback they got in 2017, it's not valid, given the Artificer does likewise, and many other D&D classes do exactly that. Whereas complex/powerful are potentially valid.

None of this supports the "too negative to be worth saving", which implies there was essentially nothing of worth, not even the concept.

Further, WotC have made a lot of comments on Psionic stuff over the years, before and after Mystic, that suggest some problems within their team on how Psionics are viewed, and how the Mystic was viewed.

This is what confuses me, as it's no established tradition to have a dedicated Psion class. That's not how it worked in first edition, which is what started psionics to begin with and which was the established tradition for a very long time and at the peak of the golden age of D&D. There, all the classes could also have psionics - same theme as this proposal for 5e.

And even the editions which had dedicated psionic classes didn't do those classes the same between editions, and didn't even call them by the same names. Is a 2e Psionicist really all that similar to a 4e Psion?

So it's not like this is some sacred cow being slain by not going with a dedicated Psion class. It's why I think all the claims of some consensus among those who want psionics is bunk. It's only a consensus for those who were hardcore 3e fans I think.

Sorry Mistwell but this definitely wrong, and seems very forced.

Three editions of D&D have had dedicated psionics classes. That's a huge tradition. Saying there's "no tradition" suggests placing zero value on editions after 1st. Two of those editions had MULTIPLE dedicated psionics classes. That's huge. All three had entire books on it.

Further, I dislike 3E, so claiming "only dedicated 3E fans" want a psionics class is absolutely bizarre and wrong just on that basis.

You ask if the classes are "really the same classes?" but that's disingenuous, because the Bard of 5E is definitely NOT the Bard of 4E, who was definitely not the Bard of 3E, who was definitely not the Bard of 2E, who scarcely be more different from the Bard of 1E! Classes change. Almost no class in 4E was particularly close to their 3E predecessor, and many 5E classes are very distant from previous editions, on many many points. Fighter is particularly spectacularly different one in every edition, and that's one of the most simple classes.

The only class which has remained more or less solid, with the exception of 4E, has been Wizard. So that's a very weak argument.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
No, I'm expressing an honestly-held opinion, and one that I'm pretty sure you think is actually correct.

What percentage, do you think, of current D&D players, looking at all D&D players, including all the new groups that have sprung up with 5E, and all the people who started with 2E, 3E and even 4E, and are still/once again playing, actually want to go back to 1E-style rules?

Please answer honestly. "I have no idea" is fine, but it's a cop-out, frankly, because you clearly have an opinion here.

I would say it's approximately 23.8%.

I genuinely believe the kids who grew up on 1e D&D are now the parents teaching their now-teenage kids to play D&D. And both Mearls and Crawford (and I think one other designer) have said that at some point they are seeing a very strong old-school contingent who have come back to the game after not playing it basically since the late 80s. It's one reason why they grabbed a couple of old school consultants to help give advice on these new rules to begin with. And why they focused pretty hard on those old school adventures, and some old school themes in this edition, and even an old school organization system for some of the rules where you sort of discover the rules as you read as opposed to using the index and more modern organizational structure.

I also think we're looking at now more than 50% of the players who are completely new to D&D and playing D&D for the first time with 5e. Let's call it about 53%. Players who only know psionics by the small element of them which already exists in the game and which appears to be able to link to a monster here and there but which has no unified theme, or by rumor from past editions which often harkens back to the beginning with 1E.

Which, to me, leaves about 23.2% for that 3E-4E contingent (I am not counting 2E because I really think most of them are very find of 1E as well, and that the Psionicist really isn't the same animal as this Psion concept from 3e and 4e. I also think a lot of the 3E contingent got bled-off to Pathfinder).

This is all of course give or take a few percent :)

But that 23.2% contingent is strong on message boards like this one (which the devs have also said, directly, is not representative of the majority opinions of 5e players that they've found in their surveys). Because the message boards like this one were started with 3E.

However, if you look at the more modern message board type systems, such as Reddit, you will find that 3E-4E contingent isn't nearly as strong as a place like this one.

So there you have it, my honest opinion. I really, genuinely think you're wrong. I really, genuinely, think you're a victim of confirmation bias on this topic. That you post where the 3E-4E contingent is strongest, and so have fooled yourself into thinking your views represent a majority that they do not.

You don't have to like my opinion, but you did ask for people's honest opinion as to whether they think you're correct. And I truly do not.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
This is what confuses me, as it's no established tradition to have a dedicated Psion class. That's not how it worked in first edition, which is what started psionics to begin with and which was the established tradition for a very long time and at the peak of the golden age of D&D. There, all the classes could also have psionics - same theme as this proposal for 5e.

And even the editions which had dedicated psionic classes didn't do those classes the same between editions, and didn't even call them by the same names. Is a 2e Psionicist really all that similar to a 4e Psion?

So it's not like this is some sacred cow being slain by not going with a dedicated Psion class. It's why I think all the claims of some consensus among those who want psionics is bunk. It's only a consensus for those who were hardcore 3e fans I think.
The Complete Psionics handbook came out in 1991. That was 29 years ago. I know we're old, but something that dates back that far has some weight of tradition to it. Not all of us were of age to play in the '70s and '80s.

The name might be slightly different, but the idea of having a broadly versatile class that could utilize the psionic system, functioning as a wizard corollary, is pretty consistent from 2e, through 3e, 3.5e, and 4e.
 

I would say it's approximately 23.8%.

I genuinely believe the kids who grew up on 1e D&D are now the parents teaching their now-teenage kids to play D&D. And both Mearls and Crawford (and I think one other designer) have said that at some point they are seeing a very strong old-school contingent who have come back to the game after not playing it basically since the late 80s. It's one reason why they grabbed a couple of old school consultants to help give advice on these new rules to begin with.

I also think we're looking at now more than 50% of the players who are completely new to D&D and playing D&D for the first time with 5e. Let's call it about 53%.

Which, to me, leaves about 23.2% for that 3E-4E contingent (I am not counting 2E because I really think most of them are very find of 1E as well, and that the Psionicist really isn't the same animal as this Psion concept from 3e and 4e).

But that 23.2% contingent is strong on message boards like this one (which the devs have also said, directly, is not representative of the majority opinions of 5e players that they've found in their surveys). Because the message boards like this one were started with 3E.

However, if you look at the more modern message board type systems, such as Reddit, you will find that 3E-4E contingent isn't nearly as strong as a place like this one.

So there you have it, my honest opinion. I really, genuinely think you're wrong. I really, genuinely, think you're a victim of confirmation bias on this topic. That you post where the 3E-4E contingent is strongest, and so have fooled yourself into thinking your views represent a majority that they do not.

Yeah I don't think I'm the one suffering from "confirmation bias", when you just dismissed 29 years of gaming as "not a tradition", and claimed "only 3E fans want a dedicated psionics class" (given I'm not even a 3E fan, quite the contrary - how do you not remember this?).

Re: Reddit I post there regularly under a different name, and the only group that's strong there is the "started with 5E" group, who are largely confused as to what this whole "Psionics" deal is. On the 5E reddit anyway. The general D&D reddit is 100% pictures of people's characters and dice towers and DMs saying "Well I had three PCs murdered off-screen by my ninja super-assassin with no rolls and now my players are mad! How do I set them straight?!".
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Yeah I don't think I'm the one suffering from "confirmation bias", when you just dismissed 29 years of gaming as "not a tradition", and claimed "only 3E fans want a dedicated psionics class" (given I'm not even a 3E fan, quite the contrary - how do you not remember this?).

Re: Reddit I post there regularly under a different name, and the only group that's strong there is the "started with 5E" group, who are largely confused as to what this whole "Psionics" deal is. On the 5E reddit anyway. The general D&D reddit is 100% pictures of people's characters and dice towers and DMs saying "Well I had three PCs murdered off-screen by my ninja super-assassin with no rolls and now my players are mad! How do I set them straight?!".

I didn't say there was no tradition there, I said it's not ESTABLISHED tradition because of the variance. Do you honestly think the 2e Psionicists has a lot in common with the 4e Psion? I don't.

And I didn't say only 3e fans want a dedicated psionics class either. There is a lot more to my view on that, than simply that claim, particularly since I went to some lengths to say it as 3E-4E :)

Which again reinforces in my mind that you're engaging in confirmation bias, if your response to what I wrote was not one but two strawmen. It's a pretty good sign that I was right, in my opinion. That you might be ignoring indications which run contrary to your bias.

I mean heck, your entire response to me smacks of "I didn't really want people's honest opinions on this - I wanted them to agree with me that I was right." But that's not what you asked for. You asked for people's honest opinion about your view. So I gave you it. I didn't think you'd like it though.

And I agree Reddit is strong with the "started with 5e" group. That was in fact what I said.

What's funny is there IS a dedicated psionics flavor that I want that they're not going with. Which is Deryni psionics. So it's not like I don't have sympathy for your view. I am just calling it like I see it. I don't think your assumption that your view is held by a majority is a well-founded assumption.
 

maceochaid

Explorer
This would definitely go the way of "Essentials" in 5E but, as someone who doesn't get to squeamish about classes stepping on each others toes or gentle and optional revisions, I wouldn't mind if they did Sorcerer(Variant) Psionic Mind. Similar to the Class Variant UA rules that were released. It would be a sorcerer with some changes that are understood to replace key idea, Intelligence would be it's spell casting ability, and it would have a specifically tailored Spell list to have a more clearly dedicated psychic flavor. Unless otherwise stated any other rules operate as if it is the "Sorcerer" class.
 

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