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Chaos Bolt is the first Sorcerer-only spell. Interesting.

What I've read so far looks really good. I like the idea of Ceremony quite a bit, but some of the effects (Investiture!) might be a little overpowered.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I like to call this "Monte Cook" syndrome: You can only do cool things if you can cast spells, otherwise you must jump through hoops to be good at things that don't break my sense of verisimilitude.

I think that attitude betrays a lack of respect for what people can *actually do* in real life that is FREAKING AMAZING.

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[Saeviomagy]

Care to explain?

You know many real actual people who can effortlessly achieve 3' to 5' of vertical displacement on a jump? 5E fighters can do that all day, while carrying 150+ lb. of gear. The world record in high jump is only 8.5' off the ground--I'm not an anatomy expert but that seems likely to be about 5' of vertical displacement too, give or take.

Or were you talking exclusively about the world record for long jump?

It kind of seems to be you who is talking about one specific sport and dismissing everything else:

Long jump is 24ft (for a level 20 barbarian with top stats) in D&D vs 29ft real world for someone who could not possibly fight an elephant-sized flying fire-breathing lizard and live to tell the tale.

Top sprinting speed real world is 180ft/round, which IIRC requires a high level monk/rogue/barbarian combo to reach.

Marathon running is 120ft/round, which is at least doable by a rogue with mobility. But if you use the chase rules, he's not going to be able to actually do that all race.

Forced march rules are pretty crazy too: http://www.bushwalkingvictoria.org....ng-challenges-australian-alpine-walking-track. Day 4 and 7 have a pretty high chance to kill you through exhaustion according to D&D rules, and this isn't world-champion level stuff.

Lockpicking medieval level locks is apparently really easy to fail at, despite most experts regarding such a thing as trivial.

D&D characters flat-out die after a maximum of 14 days with no food. As far as I can tell, real world people go for 30+.

D&D characters flat-out die after 6 days with no water. People have survived to 10.

I think the encumbrance rules are probably ridiculously generous.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

It kind of seems to be you who is talking about one specific sport and dismissing everything else:

Long jump is 24ft (for a level 20 barbarian with top stats) in D&D vs 29ft real world for someone who could not possibly fight an elephant-sized flying fire-breathing lizard and live to tell the tale.

Top sprinting speed real world is 180ft/round, which IIRC requires a high level monk/rogue/barbarian combo to reach.

Marathon running is 120ft/round, which is at least doable by a rogue with mobility. But if you use the chase rules, he's not going to be able to actually do that all race.

Forced march rules are pretty crazy too: http://www.bushwalkingvictoria.org....ng-challenges-australian-alpine-walking-track. Day 4 and 7 have a pretty high chance to kill you through exhaustion according to D&D rules, and this isn't world-champion level stuff.

Lockpicking medieval level locks is apparently really easy to fail at, despite most experts regarding such a thing as trivial.

D&D characters flat-out die after a maximum of 14 days with no food. As far as I can tell, real world people go for 30+.

D&D characters flat-out die after 6 days with no water. People have survived to 10.

I think the encumbrance rules are probably ridiculously generous.

Regular people's encumbrance is ridiculously generous but the lift/carry/drag rules still fail at the high end. IIRC a 20 strength can carry 600 lbs but Halfthor Bjornsen (sp?) carried 1400 lbs (I think it was - admittedly for 5 steps, and he probably qualifies for that size-up trait that orcs and goliaths have).

Similarly, lifting records stomp the 20 strength maximum.

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[FormerlyHemlock]

Sure, among other things like weight lifting. (As an aside, I'm not sure why you would call an 8.5' high jump 5' of verticle displacement - how is it *not* 8.5' of verticle displacement?)

Because they don't jump 8.5' in the air. They clear a 8.5' bar, from a starting position 3' or 4' off the ground, depending on how tall they are. (In fact, apparently part of the genius of the Fosbury Flop is that their center of mass never goes over the bar at all--I guess they're sort of rotating around it.)

Another point of comparison is to look at NBA superstars, who top out around 48" (i.e. four feet) of displacement, according to this: http://www.best-basketball-tips.com/highest-vertical-jump-in-nba.html

At any rate, my point is, at the high end (you are right about the carrying gear and all-day oddities, sure) the game doesn't yet seem to model *reality* for martial characters, far or less break into superpowers.

Aside from the obvious issues with running speed (which are even worse for non-humans, like dragons and birds), it seems to model it reasonably well; when it errs it generally errs on the generous side, at least for PCs. Just look at the encumbrance rules. [eyeroll]

Aside from some if the oddities, naturally.

I just mean to suggest that there is still wiggle-room in the middle, not that I think you can vastly add power to martial characters.

All right, that seems reasonable. I'd be quite open to letting someone exceed his baseline jumping distance with a suitable Athletics check, if that's the kind of thing you're talking about. Something on the order of 10-30% increase depending on how good the check result is. That would let a Str 20 fighter rival the world record (while wearing plate armor!) on a good check; a Str 24 Barbarian could comfortably exceed it. It also lets the Barbarian jump clear over Shaquille O'Neal's head, or dunk a basketball through a hoop 18' off the ground.

I already have rules that let (N)PCs run much faster than their RAW Dash speeds.

Is that the kind of wiggle-room you are thinking of?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Go back and look at the fighter over time when Gygax ran the show. He has stated and his work product made it obvious that he knew the fighter was continually falling behind. Fighters used to have the best saves in the game, making them a nightmare for wizards. Wizards used to have d4 HP and zero hit points meant you were dead. All those extra HP of the fighter meant a hell of a lot more then as did his d8 weapon damage. If we're getting Gygaxian, the frailty of full casters would actually be meaningful. There's no Shield, Absorb Elements, etc to save your arcane -----.

Sure. So what? We weren't talking about the frailty of the wizard class; we were talking about what you can do without magic. If you're changing the subject to say that magic comes at too little cost in 5E, while doing not quite enough cool stuff, then I'm inclined to agree with you. (The 5E magic system is one reason I've been considering lately whether or not to run my next campaign in AD&D instead of 5E, now that I have a couple decades' more experience; I need to weigh the cost/benefit tradeoff. Is it easier to revamp 5E or to revamp AD&D, in both cases stealing the best bits from each other and from GURPS?)

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Because they don't jump 8.5' in the air. They clear a 8.5' bar, from a starting position 3' or 4' off the ground, depending on how tall they are. (In fact, apparently part of the genius of the Fosbury Flop is that their center of mass never goes over the bar at all--I guess they're sort of rotating around it.)

Another point of comparison is to look at NBA superstars, who top out around 48" (i.e. four feet) of displacement, according to this: http://www.best-basketball-tips.com/highest-vertical-jump-in-nba.html



Aside from the obvious issues with running speed (which are even worse for non-humans, like dragons and birds), it seems to model it reasonably well; when it errs it generally errs on the generous side, at least for PCs. Just look at the encumbrance rules. [eyeroll]



All right, that seems reasonable. I'd be quite open to letting someone exceed his baseline jumping distance with a suitable Athletics check, if that's the kind of thing you're talking about. Something on the order of 10-30% increase depending on how good the check result is. That would let a Str 20 fighter rival the world record (while wearing plate armor!) on a good check; a Str 24 Barbarian could comfortably exceed it. It also lets the Barbarian jump clear over Shaquille O'Neal's head, or dunk a basketball through a hoop 18' off the ground.

I already have rules that let (N)PCs run much faster than their RAW Dash speeds.

Is that the kind of wiggle-room you are thinking of?

Sure, that sort of thing sounds pretty good.



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[MiraMels]

Closing thoughts:
I'm a bit disappointed that there are no new weapon cantrips.

What's a weapon cantrip? You mean like, shillelagh?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

What's a weapon cantrip? You mean like, shillelagh?

Presumably this is a reference to the cantrips in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, specifically Greenflame Blade and Booming Blade. This results in regular weapon damage (e.g. d8 + Str, possibly plus sneak attack) plus bonus damage/effects from the cantrip. You also use your regular attack stat (Str or Dex) on the attack roll, instead of your spellcasting stat.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The 5E magic system is one reason I've been considering lately whether or not to run my next campaign in AD&D instead of 5E,

Putting back some of the iconic restrictions on magic wouldn't be too hard: allow spellcasting to be interrupted with an attack using a Reaction, have everyone prepare spells directly into slots instead of casting spontaneously, enforce components, etc... [/QUOTE] Is it easier to revamp 5E or to revamp AD&D[/quote] 5e. Just less messy.

in both cases stealing the best bits from each other and from GURPS?

The best bits of GURPS are how well-researched the worldbooks are, and that it's published by someone as capable as Steve Jackson. Stealing him would be kidnapping. But adapting the applicable worldbook should be pretty doable.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Putting back some of the iconic restrictions on magic wouldn't be too hard: allow spellcasting to be interrupted with an attack using a Reaction, have everyone prepare spells directly into slots instead of casting spontaneously, enforce components, etc...

Is it easier to revamp 5E or to revamp AD&D[/quote] 5e. Just less messy. The best bits of GURPS are how well-researched the worldbooks are, and that it's published by someone as capable as Steve Jackson. Stealing him would be kidnapping. But adapting the applicable worldbook should be pretty doable.[/QUOTE]

Maybe. The 5E chassis is nice in some ways; I appreciate the fact that you get all the stats for monsters instead of just Intelligence. But it's also very, very combat-centric to the point where I'm practically inventing my own RPG anyway whenever combat isn't happening.
5E is also very married to uniform distributions and d20 rolls as a resolution mechanism to the point where it feels pretty non-idiomatic to do something as simple as say, "The stronger guy wins the arm-wrestling match." (What, no opposed d20 checks?!) Don't get me started on Perception/Investigation checks either.

Currently the main thing keeping me with 5E is, ironically, the fact that I really like the way warriors function in 5E combat; there are lots of fun tactical options for warrior-types and rogue-types during combat--the whole action/reaction/bonus action thing works out really well for them. Not quite as well as GURPS: Martial Arts, but then GURPS: Martial Arts doesn't have Fireball--so 5E functions as kind of a compromise between AD&D and GURPS (with a dash of Shadowrun thrown in at 9th+ level). But there are definitely times when 5E's core idioms try my patience.