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Chaos Bolt is the first Sorcerer-only spell. Interesting. What I've read so far looks really good. I like the idea of Ceremony quite a bit, but some of the effects (Investiture!) might be a little overpowered.

Chaos Bolt is the first Sorcerer-only spell. Interesting.

What I've read so far looks really good. I like the idea of Ceremony quite a bit, but some of the effects (Investiture!) might be a little overpowered.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
FWIW, Mearls said a few months back, on Twitter, in a discussion about swapping spell lists to customize concepts (like giving a paladin ranger spells to make a more strongly Green Knight version of the Ancients Paladin), that most spell list swapping is fine, but to be careful with warlocks, because their spell list is designed to avoid a lot of concentration spells.

So, the idea that they don't have buffs because flavor is questionable. They do have a few buff spells, they just are few, and two of hem live in Invocations.
 

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Prakriti

Hi, I'm a Mindflayer, but don't let that worry you
No, they aren't.
I'm speaking of Warlocks as a cultural archetype, not as a D&D class. In that regard, Warlocks practice "evil magic" (Wikipedia) and "black arts" (Merriam-Webster); the name derives from Old English words for deceiver, traitor, liar, enemy, and devil. Warlocks are most certainly associated with evil.

Yes, D&D plays with the conventions by giving Warlocks a somewhat morally palatable subclass, but IMO, that was a design failure. The Archfey subclass doesn't mix well with the Warlock flavor.
 

I have no objection to wizards having it, I'm just fine with them not getting it, outside of a white Mage subclass. I'm also fine with them having it.
That was not the impression you gave in previous statements, but never mind.

If they are able to make potions, rest, rinse, repeat, to the point where it's a problem, that is a DM failure.
How is that a DM failure? What ought the DM to be doing differently -- jump the party with a random encounter every day at 7 AM? And why is it the DM's responsibility to fix an obvious rules problem?

The wizard can abuse it just as well, because it has many more slots, and a class feature to regain some slots early, and they last 24 hours.
No, because all the wizard's resources are daily, including the feature that lets her regain slots. If the wizard casts this spell, that's an opportunity cost: a daily resource she can't use for something else. Which fine and appropriate for an effect which lasts all day. But a warlock's resources aren't daily, so he can cast the spell, get the resource back, and use it for something else. Qualitatively different situations.

The warlock can already get an invocation at level 2 that lets them cast Mage Armor or one that lets them cast False Life, at will. Warlocks interact with spell economy differently. That is part of the class.
Neither of these spells have a cumulative effect nor can they be shared. You will note that although mage armor can normally be cast on another person, Armor of Shadows specifically cannot be. And please understand that I'm not making a thematic "warlocks are selfish" argument here. Mechanically speaking, if you've got a mage armor spell that you can only cast on yourself, it doesn't matter whether you can cast it once per day or once per short rest or at will, because it lasts all day in any case. This is a very different situation than being able to conjure potions which you can accumulate.

Thematically, I still don't buy any of the arguments being made against it. They don't have buff spells, so what? That...literally isn't a reason for them not to have this spell.
What would you accept as a valid reason for them not to have a spell? Why don't you think they have, say, cure wounds?
 

FWIW, Mearls said a few months back, on Twitter, in a discussion about swapping spell lists to customize concepts (like giving a paladin ranger spells to make a more strongly Green Knight version of the Ancients Paladin), that most spell list swapping is fine, but to be careful with warlocks, because their spell list is designed to avoid a lot of concentration spells.
Can I see this tweet? Does he explain the reasoning behind avoiding concentration spells? Because I don't see it from a mechanical standpoint. If anything, they have less pressure than most classes from concentration overcrowding when they cast so few spells and rely so much on their cantrips.

So, the idea that they don't have buffs because flavor is questionable.
I never said that. Warlocks have some pretty damn good buffs. Armor of Agathys is awesome. But they're all self-buffs. A warlock's magic isn't useful for making someone else more powerful, it's all about making himself more powerful. And before you complain about the warlocks-are-evil trope, I should point out that monks are the same way: contrast Wholeness of Body to Lay on Hands, or Tranquility to sanctuary. This theme of self-focus versus other-focus extends beyond the question of alignment.
 

Yes, D&D plays with the conventions by giving Warlocks a somewhat morally palatable subclass, but IMO, that was a design failure. The Archfey subclass doesn't mix well with the Warlock flavor.
Nothing morally palatable about making a pact with an archfey, as far as I'm concerned. To quote Pratchett: "No one ever said elves are nice." Any being that offers power in exchange for a pact of servitude has some sort of ulterior motive. If it were on the level, it'd be empowering clerics, druids, and/or paladins instead.
 

Lanliss

Explorer
If it were the most witch-like class, it would probably be able to take the Medicine proficiency and cast cure wounds for starters. It's not. Don't be fooled by the name. You want witch, look to the druid or cleric.

I think you've missed my point. The healing elixir lasts longer than a short rest. So a warlock can wake up, use all his slots to make healing elixirs, short rest, then have those slots back and still have the elixirs. That's the problem. He can even repeat the trick to double or triple up on the free potions. I think given the way the warlock's spellcasting works, it's pretty inadvisable for the class to get beneficial spells that last for more than 1 hour (below 6th level, of course).

I will grant that the small amount of healing and lack of scaling in healing elixir makes this trick unlikely to be worth a warlock's time above maybe 5th level or so. But below that point, it can be pretty darn good.

Does your objection to the wizard getting this spell extend beyond this logic?

It's not my conception. Look at the warlock's spell list and tell me the class makes a viable party-support buffer type. No cures, no bless, no aid, no barkskin or stoneskin, no magic weapon, no haste... you see what I'm getting at here?

The picture on the Warlock class is just about the most "Witchy" picture I could imagine. That aside, I agree that they should be capable of medicine, and will probably add that to the list in my games going forward.

If you have or know players who would pull that trick, I feel sorry for you. If mine tried it, I would just tell them no, Period.

Nothing morally palatable about making a pact with an archfey, as far as I'm concerned. To quote Pratchett: "No one ever said elves are nice." Any being that offers power in exchange for a pact of servitude has some sort of ulterior motive. If it were on the level, it'd be empowering clerics, druids, and/or paladins instead.

So many people assume that because the Patron does not give their stuff away for free They must be Evil. Do you also consider the local Armorer evil? or the Tavern, or horse master? Doing something for payment doesn't make the Patron any more evil then those guys and girls. If you run it that way in your games, more power and all that, but I just think its silly.

As an example, the Patrons in my world work as follows.

Fiend: Chaos has spread to the Infernal Planes, so there are Lawful Fiends, attempting to uphold the Infernal System, and Chaotic fiends trying to tear it down. Both could get Warlocks to help them. Lawful fiends also see the necessity in the Material Plane not being totally wiped out by Chaos, so they put their powers towards keeping it clear.

Fey: Yep, Chaos is in the Feywild as well, but much worse. It has actually leaked in and started physically devouring the Plane, as Chaos does. So, the Archfey are in a constant war against Abominations and Monstrosities that pour out of the darkness. Their Warlocks, and Ancient Paladins, are primary fighters in this war, so both of them generally get called to the Feywild once they reach a high enough mastery of their powers.

Great Old One: These are an example of why Chaos is called "Chaos", and not "Evil". A lot of them are so fragmented that they don't even realize they gave power away. Others will be fighting against Chaos, making a classic example of Chaotic Stupid, like most people think Chaotic characters act.
 

The picture on the Warlock class is just about the most "Witchy" picture I could imagine. That aside, I agree that they should be capable of medicine, and will probably add that to the list in my games going forward.
And cure wounds?
And lesser and greater restoration?
And raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection?

The warlock in the PHB is not in any sense a healer. It is patently obvious that is not the direction WotC was going for, no matter what the lady in the illustration looks like to you. You can homebrew whatever you like into your game, of course, but at some point you must realize that you're just writing a new class.

If you have or know players who would pull that trick, I feel sorry for you. If mine tried it, I would just tell them no, Period.
So you agree that it's a problem and something that should not happen in game. Great! We're on the same page! Then I repeat the question: why should it be the DM's responsibility to fix this problem, rather than something the rules themselves cover? It's not as if this is some obscure interaction between two rules that you have to bend over backwards to intersect. They put this spell right there on the warlock's spell list.

So many people assume that because the Patron does not give their stuff away for free They must be Evil.
And yet that's not what I said. I said they had ulterior motives and weren't on the level. They don't have to be evil, but there does have to be a strong element of mystery and danger to the pact, or else the warlock is just a cleric with different mechanics.
 
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bmcdaniel

Adventurer
I like the concept of the ceremony spell, but I think the implementation is very odd. The benefits seem very short-lived as compared to the significance of the ceremonies. Also, some of the benefits seem random (why does getting married give an AC boost?). Below are my take on the spells. All of the low-level ceremony spells will be written into a "Book of Common Ceremonies" that any cleric can use with its ritual casting ability. (Also, my campaign has a monotheist Church, which affects the flavor of the spells).


Ceremony of Birth
1st-level enchantment (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (holy water or oil, and a holy symbol which is not consumed)
Duration: Until one month after birth (see text)
When you cast this spell, you recognize the beginning of the target's life. In order to be effective, this ceremony must be conducted in the presence of other persons, who traditionally include the parents of the target. This spell must be cast within 7 days after the target's birth.
Until the target is one month old, the target can't be charmed, frightened, or possessed by an aberration, celestial, elemental, fey, fiend, or undead. This prevents the target from being replaced by a changeling. In addition, the target had advantage on saving throws against illnesses and nonmagical diseases.


Ceremony of Coming Of Age
1st-level enchantment (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a holy symbol, amulet, book or other object which is not consumed)
Duration: One week
When you cast this spell, you recognize that the target has formally become an adult and accepted the tents of the Church. In order to be effective, this ceremony must be conducted in the presence of other persons, who traditionally include the family and friends of the target. No person can benefit from this ceremony more than once in their lifetime.
At any time before the spell ends, the target can choose to invoke the benefits of this spell (which does not require an action). For one minute afterwards, whenever a target makes an attack roll, saving throw or ability check, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to the attack roll, saving throw or ability check.


Ceremony of Dying
1st-level enchantment (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (holy water or oil, and a holy symbol which is not consumed)
Duration: 24 hours/7 days (see text)
When you cast this spell, you ease the target's passage into death. If the targets dies within 24 hours, the target's death is not painful or frightening. This has no mechanical benefit, but it may make the target more willing to return to life later. In addition, if the target is charmed, charmed, frightened, or possessed by an aberration, celestial, elemental, fey, fiend, or undead, the effect ends upon the target's death. Finally, the target cannot become undead within 7 days after its death.


Ceremony of Funeral Rites
1st-level enchantment (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a funeral shroud, a handful of earth, and a holy symbol which is not consumed)
Duration: Until dispelled (see text)
When you cast this spell, you recognize the passage into death of the target. In order to be effective, this ceremony must be conducted in the presence of other persons, who traditionally include the family and friends of the target. This spell must be cast within 7 days after the target's death.
As part of the ceremony, you touch the target's corpse. If its soul is free and willing, the target cannot become undead, but nor can it be returned to life by any means short of a wish spell.
This spell ends if any year passes without at least one person who attended the ceremony does not perform remembrance rites at the grave of the target.


Ceremony of Marriage
1st-level enchantment (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a pair of rings which are not consumed)
Duration: Until dispelled (see text)
When you cast this spell, you formalizing a marriage between two willing participants. In order to be effective, this ceremony must be conducted in the presence of other persons, who traditionally include the family and friends of the married. No person can benefit from this ceremony more than once in their lifetime, even if a prior marriage ended for acceptable reasons.
Each of the targets gains a bond similar to "I am devoted to ________, my spouse." If the bond changes, the spell automatically ends for both targets.
Once in each target's life they may choose to gain advantage on all attack rolls, saving throws and ability checks for one minute while defending, supporting or otherwise serving their spouse.


Ceremony of Ordination
3rd-level enchantment (ritual)
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a holy symbol)
Duration: Permanent until removed
You formally ordain the target as a clergymember of the Church, placing an invisible mark upon the target's forehead. This spell only effects targets who are actual or purported worshippers of the Heilege Ein.
If the target's forehead is uncovered, the mark of ordination can be clearly seen by any cleric, paladin, or other divine spellcaster.
This spell does not guarantee that the target is actually in good standing with the Church, has any particular alignment, etc.
This spell cannot be dispelled, but it can be ended by casting this spell with the intention of reversing the ordination (the target is not affected if it succeeds on a Wisdom saving throw). The spell is also ended by a remove curse spell cast by divine magic ends the spell as described in the remove curse spell.


Ceremony of Undertaking
3rd-level enchantment (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a holy symbol, amulet, book or other object which is not consumed)
Duration: One year
When you cast this spell, you recognize that the target is formally undertaking a quest for the benefit of the Church. In order to be effective, this ceremony must be conducted in a church, cathedral, shrine or similar consecrated place. No person can benefit from this ceremony more than once per year.
At any time before the spell ends, while engaged in activities that further the undertaking, the target can choose to invoke the benefits of this spell (which does not require an action). For one minute afterwards, whenever a target makes an attack roll, saving throw or ability check, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to the attack roll, saving throw or ability check.


Oathbinding
4th-level enchantment
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Components: V
Duration: One year
The target of this spell must voluntarily swear an oath, repeating binding words that you give to it. Typically, the oath will be to carry out some service or refrain from some action or course of activity, but the oath may be swear to the truth of some circumstances.
The target must consent to the spell, thus there is no saving throw. The consent may be coerced but it may not be magically compelled. However, a target that is immune from being charmed is not affected by this spell.
While the spell is in effect, the target takes 5d10 psychic damage each time it acts in a manner directly counter to its oath (or it has knowledge that the circumstances sworn to are untrue), but no more than once each day.
A remove curse or wish spell also ends this spell.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 5th or 6th level, the duration is 1 year. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 7th or 8th level, the duration is 10 years. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 9th level, the spell lasts until it is ended by one of the spells mentioned above.


Zone of Ordeal

4th-level transmutation
Casting Time: 4 hours
Range: touch
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 hour
You create a magical zone that is typically used as a judicially sanctioned way to settle accusations by opposing parties.
When casting the spell you designate two target creatures and demarcate a 45-foot-radius sphere around which you walk. Each target must voluntarily accept this spell by swearing a statement of some circumstances (thus, there is no saving throw for the targets). Usually, the statements are made in a way that one target must swear falsely. However, a clever target can avoid the ill effects of this spell by swearing in a manner that is not literally false.
If a target swears a deliberate lie, as long as it is in the zone, it grants advantage on all attack rolls against it and has disadvantage on all saving throws. Furthermore, the first time each round that the target takes damage, it takes an additional 5d10 psychic damage.
If a target does not swear a deliberate lie, it gains 100 temporary hit points. These temporary hit points are lost if the target leaves the zone.
Anyone other than the targets of this spell must make a Wisdom saving throw in order to attack, cast a spell targeting or target with a special ability or effect any of this spell's targets that remains in the magical zone created by this spell.
This spell has no effect on celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
On the "Warlocks break the potion spell more than wizards" discussion I offer this

Assume 12th level for ease of numbers

Warlock has three slots, so on the short rest they create 3 potions and nap.

Wizard can make 5 potions by spending 4 1st and a 2nd then napping.


Now, I will grant, the Warlock can then make 3 more and nap again and continue doing this ad nausem. However, Most groups aren't really going to be cool with this. They want to adventure, not sit around while the Warlock does this.


There is a second circumstance though. Preparing them the day before.

How many the warlock makes depends on how many short rests you allow, but they only last for 24 hours, so as the day goes on they lose 4 at every break point.


Wizard can make 22 potions at the end of the day, that are good till the end of the day.


So there is some nuance to the discussion I think
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I'm speaking of Warlocks as a cultural archetype, not as a D&D class. In that regard, Warlocks practice "evil magic" (Wikipedia) and "black arts" (Merriam-Webster); the name derives from Old English words for deceiver, traitor, liar, enemy, and devil. Warlocks are most certainly associated with evil.

Yes, D&D plays with the conventions by giving Warlocks a somewhat morally palatable subclass, but IMO, that was a design failure. The Archfey subclass doesn't mix well with the Warlock flavor.

Historically, sure.

How do you feel about the Druid? Because it has almost no relation or similarity at all to the historical druid. Lore Bards have more in common with actual Druids than the DnD Druid does.

The DnD classes are their own thing, and the DnD Warlock isn't nearly as tied to the Evil alignment as the Paladin is to Good.

The Fey warlock is part of the warlock identity now. For two editions, the warlock has had many possible patrons, and the core three options have been Hell, Fey, and Cthulhu-stand-in.
[MENTION=6683613]TheCosmicKid[/MENTION] I'm not going to dig through mearls' twitter feed for a months old tweet. If you want to, feel free.

You know a short rest takes a whole hour, right? If the party doesn't care and the DM lets them take 6 short rests, and waste most of their adventuring day, just to have a stack of potions that will expire before all of them are even used, that is not a problem with the spell.

I'm not going to take a spell from a class because of some edge case abuse that can easily be avoided, and is unlikely to even happen.

Re wizards: you completely missed the point. Wizards will end most days with plenty of spell slots, spam cast this, long rest, and have a day's supply of elixers. Same. Abuse. Potential.

The thematic argument gets too nitpickey, so I'm not getting further into it.

All I will say is, "the class doesn't have this type of thing, so it shouldn't ever have that type of thing", isn't a valid argument.
 

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