Particle_Man
Explorer
Cam Banks said:
Um...you wouldn't happen to have the stats for that handy, would you?
Unearthed Arcana: The generic expert got the shaft!
- Thread starter Particle_Man
- Start date
Um...you wouldn't happen to have the stats for that handy, would you?
The akashic gets all skills as class skills and 8 skillpoints per lvl. They have medium BAB, d6 HD and good will save. a d6 is the lowest HD in the game, even the main spellcaster types have a d6.
The akashics are people who can access the collective memory and are the skill boys of AU. They gain several abilities to reflect this. All of them have some kind of bardic knowledge (access to collective memory) and a booster to skill checks they can use several times a day (range of the boost is +2 to +6, depends on level). INT bonus to knowledge skills they possess is doubled.
At 12th level they can gain use of a generic feat they qualify for several rounds a day. At 20th level they can cast a spell of up to 7th level once per day.
There are also other abilities they can pick as they progress. They are divided into minor, lesser and greater abilities. They deal mostly with thought reading, information gathering, impersonating people, one die of sneak attack (up to 3d6, once for each type), a feat (up to 3 feats, one for each type) and stuff like that.
Hope that helps.
The akashics are people who can access the collective memory and are the skill boys of AU. They gain several abilities to reflect this. All of them have some kind of bardic knowledge (access to collective memory) and a booster to skill checks they can use several times a day (range of the boost is +2 to +6, depends on level). INT bonus to knowledge skills they possess is doubled.
At 12th level they can gain use of a generic feat they qualify for several rounds a day. At 20th level they can cast a spell of up to 7th level once per day.
There are also other abilities they can pick as they progress. They are divided into minor, lesser and greater abilities. They deal mostly with thought reading, information gathering, impersonating people, one die of sneak attack (up to 3d6, once for each type), a feat (up to 3 feats, one for each type) and stuff like that.
Hope that helps.
Particle_Man
Explorer
Thanks! Hmmm...maybe instead of making a generic equivalent of a rogue or bard, I should look at making a generic equivalent of the akashic (as written, it is a bit too specific for a generic, but I like its qualities, and some of them could become feats in their own right on the generic system).
pawsplay
Hero
Particle Man, your argument is based on comparing Experts to Rogue and Bard. I don't find it a compelling argument, because the Expert is not an alternative to Rogue or Bard. The Expert is an alternative to the other two generic classes. Playtesting may reveal they should have 8 skill points per level, but I believe pretty firmly that two good Saves and more skill points than the other two classes is enough to distinguish them.
AFGNCAAP
First Post
Nice points on the Expert. I do have 1 question, though...
Though the Warrior is such a feat-monster, esp. when compared to the Expert, I think that though the Warrior could use feats to expand his/her array of skills, I'd foresee a lot of those feats getting burned up for use by combat-related feats (Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, etc.).
Also, in a party with 1 Warrior, 1 Expert, and 1 Spellcaster, it's more likely than not (unless not chosen wisely) that the Expert will have a poor save that 1 of the other 2 PCs has a good save in, and that he/she will have a good save that the other 2 PCs have a bad save in. That's pretty decent.
I also think that the Expert has a bit more choice on choosing which skills to focus in. It doesn't seem too likely that a rogue or bard PC is going to spread his/her skill points thin over all of the class skills he/she is allowed; rather, there'll be intense focus on a small group, & a few points in other skills.
A key thing for the Expert is that he/she has more opportunities to select more class skills that can only be used trained, or skills that are not likely to get boosted high by any of the Expert's high ability scores (letting additional ranks grant higher bonuses rather than the ability bonus of a skill's related ability).
A warrior or spellcaster could start off & maintain max ranks in 2 skills; an expert could start off & maintain max ranks on 6 skills. For sneak attack, a warrior would most likely have to solely focus on developing Hide & Move Silently--a expert could focus on those 2 skills, as well as a few others.
Though the Warrior is such a feat-monster, esp. when compared to the Expert, I think that though the Warrior could use feats to expand his/her array of skills, I'd foresee a lot of those feats getting burned up for use by combat-related feats (Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, etc.).
Also, in a party with 1 Warrior, 1 Expert, and 1 Spellcaster, it's more likely than not (unless not chosen wisely) that the Expert will have a poor save that 1 of the other 2 PCs has a good save in, and that he/she will have a good save that the other 2 PCs have a bad save in. That's pretty decent.
I also think that the Expert has a bit more choice on choosing which skills to focus in. It doesn't seem too likely that a rogue or bard PC is going to spread his/her skill points thin over all of the class skills he/she is allowed; rather, there'll be intense focus on a small group, & a few points in other skills.
A key thing for the Expert is that he/she has more opportunities to select more class skills that can only be used trained, or skills that are not likely to get boosted high by any of the Expert's high ability scores (letting additional ranks grant higher bonuses rather than the ability bonus of a skill's related ability).
A warrior or spellcaster could start off & maintain max ranks in 2 skills; an expert could start off & maintain max ranks on 6 skills. For sneak attack, a warrior would most likely have to solely focus on developing Hide & Move Silently--a expert could focus on those 2 skills, as well as a few others.
Particle_Man
Explorer
pawsplay said:
Careful, that is not quite what I said above. *One* of my four arguments compared the expert to rogue and bard. *Another* of my arguments compared the expert to the other two generics (and lo, it was found wanting). *Another* of my arguments was questioning whether the expert was really filling out a niche that could not be filled out just as well by the other two generics, either in sufficiently large numbers or with *slight* modifications. *Another* of my arguments was questioning whether the expert is needed at all. Of my four arguments, therefore, only one compared the expert to the rogue and bard.
I am glad you are confident in your belief that two good saves and four more skill points than the other classes is enough to distinguish them. But as my other three arguments show, I respectfully disagree. And so far I have seen no arguments to justify your beliefs over mine.
Particle_Man
Explorer
AFGNCAAP said:
I agree with most of what you say, although the expert is specifically listed as a potential "jack of all trades" in its description.
I am also not certain I buy the saving throw argument, as one could just as easily have 3 warriors, each with a different good save, if that was what one was going for. It would be slightly easier to pull this off with the expert, though, if two players were being stubborn about their chosen good saves.
I agree that 6 skill points/lvl is better than 2 skill points/lvl. I just don't think that 6 skill points/level is enough, considering the disadvantage the expert faces in other areas compared to the other two classes.
For comparison, imagine that the spellcaster could only cast half the spells they are currenly allotted per day, and had only half the spells known they are currently allotted. Now it would be true that they were the only spellcasters, still, and so would be doing something no other class could do. Nevertheless, the "1/2 spellcaster" could use more spells to be on par with the warrior and expert. Similarly, I argue that the expert could use more skills (and skill points) to be on par with the warrior and spellcaster.
Particle_Man
Explorer
pawsplay said:
If you find my calculation arbitrary, please provide me with a less arbitrary calculation. Or else, if all possible calculations are doomed to be arbitrary, please find some way of showing that a modified expert with 10 skill points/lvl and all possible class skills would be too powerful, relative to the other generics. Once I see your rationale, then I can understand it. I would like to see your calculations, in some economy (it could be my "economy of feats", or something else), and if the extra skill points matter more (or less) according to how many skill points one already has, and if the extra number of class skills mater more (or less) compared to the number of class skills and/or the number of skill points one already has, then put that into your calculations. It would be a little more complicated, but I would welcome your input.
I used a "feat economy" because feats are there to be found, and while it is not perfect (some feats seem to be better than others) it is at least some way of measuring things (every feat costs one feat slot, the same as every other feat costs). If you have a better way of measuring things, then please show it to me so that I can improve my calculations.
If there is no way to calculate equivalences, then it should not matter whether the expert has 2, 6, 8, 10, or 30 skill points per level (just as it would not matter whether the spellcaster has 1/2 or double the number of spells per day). And yet, intuitively, it does seem to matter, doesn't it? And if so, there must be a reason why. And if so, perhaps there is a way to find that reason, in a manner that allows comparisons with other classes. I mean, I assume that the designers of the generics section in UA (or wherever it was taken from, if it was from somewhere else verbatim prior to UA) did not simply pull numbers out of the air. They had some rationale (it might be good to hear from them, actually). I just don't think that it had balanced results, and have given some reasons why. If you don't like those reasons, feel free to provide your own reasons at to why the expert is balanced relative to the other two, and why the modified expert above would be too powerful relative to the other two.
Frostmarrow
First Post
I kind of liked your feat economy study (arbitrary or no). But I find it strange that you refuse to account for skill synergy. I mean, it might not be the great equalizer I've made it out to be but for you to simply disregard it, though it clearly benefits the class with the most skills/skillpoints is beyond me. You say that Knowledge (religion) gives you a bonus to something you can't use (I agree) but there are plenty of bonuses to go for that will work for you. The best examples might be jump and tumble which gives bonuses to eachother.
When you chose between the warrior and expert I made up, you stated that you didn't think the extra bluff, disguise and diplomacy was needed for the character (as long as someone else had it). But remember that those three (or four) skills can be swapped for any other three skills. For instance if you wanted to you could get three knowledges instead; or a complete line of wilderness skills; or craft, appraise, profession; or use magic device, decipher script, spellcraft. But you still want it all?
You are, of course, welcome to make the changes that you have suggested but you have not convinced me that the changes are at all necessary. Once we get to play-test this we will know. In any event it's been an interesting discussion which I'll keep an eye on.
When you chose between the warrior and expert I made up, you stated that you didn't think the extra bluff, disguise and diplomacy was needed for the character (as long as someone else had it). But remember that those three (or four) skills can be swapped for any other three skills. For instance if you wanted to you could get three knowledges instead; or a complete line of wilderness skills; or craft, appraise, profession; or use magic device, decipher script, spellcraft. But you still want it all?
You are, of course, welcome to make the changes that you have suggested but you have not convinced me that the changes are at all necessary. Once we get to play-test this we will know. In any event it's been an interesting discussion which I'll keep an eye on.
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