Unearthed Arcana: The generic expert got the shaft!

[Particle_Man]

I kind of liked your feat economy study (arbitrary or no). But I find it strange that you refuse to account for skill synergy. I mean, it might not be the great equalizer I've made it out to be but for you to simply disregard it, though it clearly benefits the class with the most skills/skillpoints is beyond me. You say that Knowledge (religion) gives you a bonus to something you can't use (I agree) but there are plenty of bonuses to go for that will work for you. The best examples might be jump and tumble which gives bonuses to eachother.

When you chose between the warrior and expert I made up, you stated that you didn't think the extra bluff, disguise and diplomacy was needed for the character (as long as someone else had it). But remember that those three (or four) skills can be swapped for any other three skills. For instance if you wanted to you could get three knowledges instead; or a complete line of wilderness skills; or craft, appraise, profession; or use magic device, decipher script, spellcraft. But you still want it all?

You are, of course, welcome to make the changes that you have suggested but you have not convinced me that the changes are at all necessary. Once we get to play-test this we will know. In any event it's been an interesting discussion which I'll keep an eye on.

Hmmm...I may have been too hasty on absorbing the effect of synergy within the skill itself. Partly this is because it can lead to benefits only if a character goes a certain direction. For example, your Jump/Tumble combo works, but if the person doesn't want to be a tumbler, then it is irrelevant to that person. However, I imagine that one or two synergies might be hit on by the expert that would prove useful to that particular expert. So, maybe 1/2 a feat (Since it gives less of a bonus than skill focus does, and doesn't allow you to "direct" the bonus as well as skill focus could, and since it is unlikely you would get too many synergies unless you specifically devoted the character to getting those synergies at all costs).

I guess the problem is that, taking those three skills you mention, if there is even one more warrior in the party, that warrior can pretty much take those three skills, and still fight better than the expert. The more warriors you add (the locks and traps warrior, the wilderness warrior, the UMD/spellcraft/decipher script warrior, etc.), the worse this gets. To counter this, the more skills the expert has, the less chance that he will be eclipsed by warriors/spellcasters in the only niche left to the expert.

Anyhow, I guess now there is nothing to do but wait for playtesting and hear reports about 3-6 months from now. Personally, I will try the expert with 8 skill points/lvl and all class skills, but will also use the Injury rules so the characters all have a chance of being equally "tough" in battle, since they can all choose to have good fort saves.

 

[Frostmarrow]

You can always make a character that is sub-par. When comparing classes we must look at the best possible. I.e it's rather pointless to explain why a warrior sucks when attacking with a dagger. He should be attacking with greatsword for it's whithin his power to do so. Similarily the expert that doesn't go for the synergy bonuses is sub-par. He should try to get them for they are among the things which makes him strong. But this matters little. I'm glad you at least recognise synergy as something which works the expert's way.

...

Right now I'm looking at the variant XP-system. It's kind of neat. For instance if you want to have your players go up against a thieves guild you could do the following:

The 4 characters are 6th level for a total of 9,600 XP. The thieves guild should at least consist of that. However, I want the guid to be a challenge so I decide that the guild is the equivalent of 12th level character. I.e. 19,000 XP. It breaks down like this:

12th level Organization
19,000

Lead by:
9th level spellcaster
7,200
11,800

5th level warrior
1,800
10,000

1 2nd level warrior
9 1st level warriors
3, 300
6,700

10 1st level experts
3,000
3,700

Medusa
3,600
100
(I assign the extra 100 xp to the leader.)

I stat out the following: 9th level spellcaster, 5th level warrior, 2nd level warrior, 1st level warrior, 1st level expert and a medusa. Then I get a map and furnish it with the critters. I tell the players to get something from the location on the map and - voila!

 

[Jens]

Just a couple of quick comments.

I think counting feats is a pretty good way to compare classes. It's not perfect but pretty good (and +5 BAB is worth a great deal more than 5 weapon focus feats since it applies to all weapons and attack actions). As was said, however, it's difficult to account for synergies, but how about:

Warriors enjoy great synergy between good HPs, Armors, full BAB and martial weapons. These really go well together, not to speak of feats.

Spellcasters enjoy great synergy between spells per day and number of known spells - one wouldn't be much good without the other.

Also, the lack of an ability may not be much of a hindrance to a class; if you have ASF, lacking armor profs isn't much of a loss, right?

 

[Particle_Man]

Frostmarrow: The xp chart looks interesting. On synergies, I guess their value depends on the character concept. For instance, imagine an expert that is a scout and locks and traps person. Well, the average expert can take hide, move silently, spot, listen, search, open locks and disable device, if human. Search gives a synergy bonuses to one's survival roll to detect tracks that don't have a high DC (which is good, since the expert has no points to spare for the survival roll). So we have a minor synergy, and a character that I assume is not sub-par, since scouting and traps n locks are both useful functions. To get synergy bonuses, the character is forced to get more skill points by increasing INT, but that comes at the cost of Dex, Con, or Str, if this character is going to see combat at all (and I assume the character will see some combat).
And the only other synergy I can see, assuming that the points are there, is a knowledge skill that gives a synergy to Search to detect secret doors (but not, alas, traps). And note, that if I was not human I would have even less skill points to play with (although an elf would get nice racial bonuses to three of the skills above, and a useful Dex bonus for three of the others).

Now there are synergies out there for other concepts. The tumbling/jumping acrobat type has synergies, and a half-elf "face" expert can absolutely cheese out with diplomacy synergy. But these are specific concepts. Since generics are meant to cover a wide variety of concepts, synergy is hit or miss. Nice if you concept grants skills that allow for it (i.e. skills that either give or get synergy) but not available for everyone. So that's why I gave a 1/2 feat value for the average expert, although for some experts the value will be 0 and for others the value might be considerable. Similarly, the more weapons the expert is likely to use in his career, the more she is hurt by not having the warrior's BAB. If she uses one, and only one, weapon type, then one feat per BAB is right. Otherwise, the count should be increased (by how much depends on how often a second weapon is used, how often a third weapon is used, how often the character is forced to fight unarmed, etc.)

Jens: I am slow today. What is ASF?

 

[pawsplay]

Or else, if all possible calculations are doomed to be arbitrary, please find some way of showing that a modified expert with 10 skill points/lvl and all possible class skills would be too powerful, relative to the other generics.

That's easy.

Level 1: 40+ skill points in stuff. I am a thief.
Level 2: I decide to become an acrobat and take 5 ranks each in Tumble and Balance, gaining a synergy bonus.
Level 3: I decide to become a diplomat and take 5 ranks each in Bluff and Diplomacy, gaining a synergy bonus.
Level 4: I decide to become a lawyer and take 5 ranks each in Profession (
lawyer) and Knowledge (law).
Level 5: I decide to become a doctor and take 5 ranks each in Treat Injury and Profession (physician).

I am a 5th level character. I am a thief/acrobat/diplomat/lawyer/doctor, and a good one, to boot.

My friend the Warrior, he can ride a horse, and climb.

 

[Artoomis]

Never mind.

 

[Particle_Man]

That's easy.

Level 1: 40+ skill points in stuff. I am a thief.
Level 2: I decide to become an acrobat and take 5 ranks each in Tumble and Balance, gaining a synergy bonus.
Level 3: I decide to become a diplomat and take 5 ranks each in Bluff and Diplomacy, gaining a synergy bonus.
Level 4: I decide to become a lawyer and take 5 ranks each in Profession (
lawyer) and Knowledge (law).
Level 5: I decide to become a doctor and take 5 ranks each in Treat Injury and Profession (physician).

I am a 5th level character. I am a thief/acrobat/diplomat/lawyer/doctor, and a good one, to boot.

My friend the Warrior, he can ride a horse, and climb.

Well, isn't that the very definition of "Jack of all trades" listed in the description of the generic Expert? The "Sidekick" or "mentor" that can do a little bit of everything? And isn't "jack of all trades" a viable concept? I mean, you won't be as good at law, acrobatics, diplomacy or doctoring as a lawyer, acrobat, diplomat or doctor who max out in their respective skills. And you can't max out in all those skills, AND max out all the "thief" skills, even with 10 skill points/lvl. So you will have abilities in many trades (jack of all trades) but not be perfect in any of them (and master of none). Now let's turn it around: how can a 6 skill points/lvl character possibly become a "jack of all trades" (as listed in the description of the generic expert)? Especially with a fairly sharp limitation on the number of class skills available?

 

[TwoSix]

Math proof

After some thinking, I've finally fallen on the expert is underpowered side. This is the proof that finally convinced me, plus how I'm going to change it in my campaign.

If A=B=C=D, and D>E, then A>E. We're all good with this, right?

A=B:

Gen. Warrior = PHB Fighter
Warrior loses Heavy Armor and Tower shield prof., but gains more versatile feat and class skill selection, plus the ability to take some class abilities as feats. I think we can call that a push.

B=C:

PHB Fighter = PHB Rogue
The two most core of the core classes would seem to be on the same page. I can't remember any discussion arguing either is overpowered compared to the other.

C=D:

PHB Rogue = Variant Rogue

pg. 58, UA has a rogue variant that replaces sneak attack with fighter bonus feats. I think, for this discussion, we can assume that's balanced.

D>E:

Variant Rogue > Gen. Expert

Let's look at the tape. Compared to the expert, the variant rogue has 4 more feats, 2 more skill points a level, and many more class skills (almost 30). Expert has one more good save, and slightly more versatile feat and class skill selection. Not looking all that balanced to me.

Here's the changes I've decided on for my campaign. Expert is going to become the do anything monkey, and the warrior will become less so.

All classes lose their 1st level feat. This will discourage 1-level dips.

Expert gains bonus feats at levels 2,3,5, and every odd level after. This is a total of 10 feats.

Warrior gains bonus feats at 2,5,8, and every 3 levels after. This is a total of 7 feats. I'm also going to make several warrior only feats, such as weapon specialization and improved iterative attack.

Now, this makes the first 5 levels, the pre-PrC levels, much harder to choose from. Each level grants differing abilities, but each are roughly equal in power. I spaced out the feats for expert to the odd levels so that 5th level wouldn't become a donut level, as 5th level for expert doesn't grant a BAB increase.

 

[Particle_Man]

Interesing, and I like how it solves the multi-classing problem (rather than my high-handed banning of multi-classing).

Maybe I was too locked into the "fighter as feater" mentality. I never saw that option.

Also, I learned a new phrase: "donut level".

Another option I thought of, for the 1st level feat, is to tie it to the first character level, rather than the first class level (effectively, giving everyone a bonus feat at creation only).

I was also toying with giving the expert 3 good saves, as another way out of it. But I am more attracted to your solution. Yoink!

 

[TwoSix]

Yes...I think I'll be stealing the extra feat at 1st level idea, also. I think I'll only allow it to purchase class feature feats, though. That way it feels more like a part of the class as opposed to a generic power-up. Good idea, though....yoink.