D&D 5E Unearthed Arcana: Travelers of the Multiverse

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dnd.wizards.com

Looks like Spelljammer and/or Planescape is back on the menu!

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Yeah, I don't get it either: I think thst people are viewing it as a zero sum situation thst threatens their preferredoption, but it really isn't.

Generally, people don't like changing their mind on their original opinion, even when they learn new information that directly contradicts their opinion. I'm not immune to that myself, not sure anyone is.

 

[Bolares]

Generally, people don't like changing their mind on their original opinion, even when they learn new information that directly contradicts their opinion. I'm not immune to that myself, not sure anyone is.

I am! And nothing you say to me will change my mind about that!

 

[Faolyn]

It looks like the majority of portals require specific keys or are only temporary (sometimes both), meaning they can't be relied upon for free trade on a large scale. It also looks like most permanent portals are directly controlled by factions, who use them for specific purposes (ie not trade). For example, the Doomguard has four permanent portals to the Negative Energy plane in the armory, but they use that specifically to connect Sigil to their strongholds there.

My takeaways from this are that if I am a merchant, traveling through Sigil is very unreliable. I probably don't have access to permanent portals, and if I do it's from inside information from factions that are pretty loathe to share secrets. So trade is possible through Sigil, but only on a small-business scale of merchants tracking down temporary portals to maintain business.

However, it should be noted that one of the factions is the Indeps (OK, they're not a "real" faction, but they kind of are), who are in charge of the Great Bazaar--which, as its name suggests, is all about merchants, which means that merchants actually do have a very important presence. So any portals that the Indeps own are very likely going to be used for trade, among other things. Also, there are some permanent portals, and sometimes "temporary" actually means years or decades or longer.

(There was actually an aside in one of the books about a young apprentice or merchant, can't remember, being sent out for a squid (i.e., seafood) without understanding what that was and returning with a spelljamming squid ship.)

 

[Scribe]

Generally, people don't like changing their mind on their original opinion, even when they learn new information that directly contradicts their opinion. I'm not immune to that myself, not sure anyone is.

I've changed my mind on a few things around here lately, so not all hope is lost for even the most stubborn of us.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

However, it should be noted that one of the factions is the Indeps (OK, they're not a "real" faction, but they kind of are), who are in charge of the Great Bazaar--which, as its name suggests, is all about merchants, which means that merchants actually do have a very important presence. So any portals that the Indeps own are very likely going to be used for trade, among other things. Also, there are some permanent portals, and sometimes "temporary" actually means years or decades or longer.

(There was actually an aside in one of the books about a young apprentice or merchant, can't remember, being sent out for a squid (i.e., seafood) without understanding what that was and returning with a spelljamming squid ship.)

I don't disagree. I'm just saying, if I'm the owner of several mithral mines and want to sell my mithral off-world, relying solely on trade through Sigil is probably a bad idea. I'd have to rely a lot on other people, who are constantly in gang-wars, to get my goods safely delivered and sold.

Plus if I'm a dwarf (and if I own a few mithral mines, I better be a dwarf!) a temporary portal of 10 years is but a wink in my businesses lifetime! I need reliable trade routes I can depend on for generations!

So I'm not disputing that a lot of trade happens through Sigil, I'm just saying that it alone makes trading/commerce by Spelljammer unviable.

 

[Faolyn]

So I'm not disputing that a lot of trade happens through Sigil, I'm just saying that it alone makes trading/commerce by Spelljammer unviable.

Since those are completely different settings, I'm not really sure how they're being connected here.

But anyway. Assume you're a Prime. There's very little reason why'd you'd be trading off-plane anyway. That requires some high-level magic or a useful portal (and yes, there are permanent portals), and there's really no need because you'll get better prices staying on your own world.

Go the other way and assume you're a Planar. Well, if you're a dwarf with a mithral mine, then you're likely on Mount Celestial, working with all the other Planars and Petitioners in Erackinor or some other dwarf god's domain. In this case, you're likely not selling en masse to anyone else. Instead, individual merchants would be making deals with you, and they'd be the ones to sell in Sigil. Therefore it wouldn't matter at all how long a portal lasts, because you're not the one who has to deal with them.

And if you're a Prime with a spelljamming ship, then you're likely not having anything to do with the outer planes in the first place, because you're going into outer space. In which case, you're either selling to other dwarfs, most likely, in their citadel-ships or going to some asteroid-base like the Rock of Bral (or, in D&D terms, Deep Spell IX).

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Since those are completely different settings, I'm not really sure how they're being connected here.

I'm going to specifically address this part... I started explaining trade in Sigil vs. Spelljammer because there's a poster on this thread who believes that because Sigil has portals, there is no reason for Spelljammer to exist. His opinion being that Sigil portals are always faster and safer than Spelljamming ships (which I don't think is true, but besides the point).

So I was addressing that, by talking about why one would want to trade using Spelljammer ships, and not with Sigil portals.

 

[Faolyn]

I'm going to specifically address this part... I started explaining trade in Sigil vs. Spelljammer because there's a poster on this thread who believes that because Sigil has portals, there is no reason for Spelljammer to exist. His opinion being that Sigil portals are always faster and safer than Spelljamming ships (which I don't think is true, but besides the point).

So I was addressing that, by talking about why one would want to trade using Spelljammer ships, and not with Sigil portals.

Sorry; I missed that post apparently.

But basically (to that poster), portals and spelljamming ships go to completely different places. Specifically: the outer planes and to other planets. If you want to have a trade between somebody in Waterdeep and somebody in the city of Greyhawk, use a ship. if you want to have a trade between someone in the Outlands and someone in Bytopia, use a portal. And even more specifically, you're probably not going to have both spelljammers and planar portals in the same game unless the DM wants a really wide-ranging game.

 

[Weiley31]

Bounded Accuracy might be more of a...guideline, than a rule per se.

Barbosa approved!

 

[Chaosmancer]

Nawp! Never said or implied that. Stop putting your words into my mouth.

Great, so all the planes have portals going to them, and you agree with that. Moving on.

Hordes of demons and devils are much safer than encountering another ship. Got it.

Isn't the whole point of sigil that you can see Devils and Angels having tea at the local philosophy bar? How are we getting "hordes of demons and devils" threatening people in the streets of Sigil now? Since when was that a thing?

I've already explained this. You are wrong.

I already countered your point too.

And you are wrong here as well. I'm going to go with what is written, and that's that there aren't more than a few thousand portals, most of which nobody can find or even knows are there.

I've already explained this. You are wrong.

Don't be so short sighted. I think a spelljamming adventure with a generation ship from such a sphere would be awesome. Or hell, that's a fantastic intro for a new campaign where the characters are from the most recent generation of such a ship. All you have to do is use your imagination a bit.

You know I've been talking about this from an economic standpoint, right? As in "why would people get on a ship and go through this dangerous area"

Sure, maybe you are the last of the generation arriving at a new setting, your people's entire history having been spent to arrive at this sphere... and in which case, you are never going to end up getting back on the ship and scooting off to explore the spelljamming space. You've set up a frontier story involving a new world. That doesn't fit as a campaign about space ships and exploring multiple worlds.

Maybe you can have a ship arrive at some place from forever away... but that is literally the exact opposite of the premise, because there was claimed to be no portals on the sphere 2,000 years away. So, it isn't exactly a fair comparison of portals vs spelljammers when you start with "well, if you have no portals"

But, yeah, you sure got my analysis of economic forces and how people would set up trade routes by pointing out that if I just use my imagination to give people completely different motivations they won't care about those things. I never would have imagined that you could just... completely reframe the entire discussion to be about something else, and then it would be about something else.