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Unfair Character Death?
- Thread starter The Thayan Menace
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The Thayan Menace
First Post
Judgment Day
In fact, I offered to have the gaming group sit in judgment of my actions ... and I volunteered to give the disruptive player bonus XP for his new character if I am found to be in the wrong.
The argumentative player hasn't responded to this offer, however. Our last phone conversation ended abruptly.
So far, I've only talked with one of them. He says that the guy is out of line, but I am really curious as to what the table thinks.billd91 said:
In fact, I offered to have the gaming group sit in judgment of my actions ... and I volunteered to give the disruptive player bonus XP for his new character if I am found to be in the wrong.
The argumentative player hasn't responded to this offer, however. Our last phone conversation ended abruptly.
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The Thayan Menace
First Post
Tough Love
I hope I don't have to drop him. He's one of my best friends and we play at his house.
Still, I think he's being a bit psycho about all this and he's not giving me much room for compromise.
Anyway, he mentioned that he will leave if he feels he is being treated "unfairly"; so I won't have to formally expel him regardless.
I hope I don't have to drop him. He's one of my best friends and we play at his house.
Still, I think he's being a bit psycho about all this and he's not giving me much room for compromise.
Anyway, he mentioned that he will leave if he feels he is being treated "unfairly"; so I won't have to formally expel him regardless.
The Shaman
First Post
I think the fact that you make assumptions as a player doesn't mean the GM did a poor job. Your logic may have nothing to do with the logic of the trap-setter - and if I'm designing traps, I definitely set them in places where adventurers wouldn't automatically expect to find them (or not find them).Patryn of Elvenshae said:
I'm sorry, but I think Patryn of Elvenshae and Brother Shatterstone are offering (mostly) poor advice here. I don't see any problem with how the GM adjudicated the traps other than perhaps offering a small chance to observe the trigger, as was mentioned. The Thayan Menace described the spell effect, and the casters in the party knew it was a spell - if the player of the rogue made incorrect assumptions about it and the other players failed to offer assistance, that's not the GM's fault.
I don't give my players broad clues like, "So-and-so is known for magical traps," or, "You suspect a trap because you are an n-level rogue." These are things I expect them to discover in-game, like talking to a loremaster about So-and-so's penchant for traps before entering the fortress or using the skills that an n-level rogue brings to the adventure - at the very least the player should know his own character's skills and try to use them. As far as the action and skill checks go, if I think a character should have a chance to know something that the player missed, I'll ask for a skill roll and then offer them a clue, but I don't just hand the information out when a player makes a bad choice or misses a roll.
If the player says, "My character moves to X," and I describe some effect, then that's all the warning s/he gets unless s/he gives me something more to work with, like, "Was it when I reached the statue, or before that?"Patryn of Elvenshae said:
- it looks to me like he's angling to leave. Psycho players, you don't need, and he's trying to bully you into basically becoming his female canine companion, IYKWIMAITYD
The Thayan Menace
First Post
Points to Consider
For the record, my player's argument rests on the following points:
1. He did not know that the Evard's Black Tentacles effects were magical traps. He did not feel that my description of the spell trigger informed him appropriately.
2. He told me that he believed the tentacles represented "evil magic" that he could not disable. Somehow, he wrongfully assumed that these wards could only be triggered and not disarmed.
3. He never mentioned a belief in suspecting an invisible spellcaster, until after he started coming up with reasons on why I did not provide him with enough information. He did not take any precautions in-game to deal with an alleged invisible spellcaster.
4. He believes that had I told him the Evard's effect was a magical trap, he would have attempted to disarm a rooftop trap while hanging from a rope rather than succumb to its effects.
For the record, my player's argument rests on the following points:
1. He did not know that the Evard's Black Tentacles effects were magical traps. He did not feel that my description of the spell trigger informed him appropriately.
2. He told me that he believed the tentacles represented "evil magic" that he could not disable. Somehow, he wrongfully assumed that these wards could only be triggered and not disarmed.
3. He never mentioned a belief in suspecting an invisible spellcaster, until after he started coming up with reasons on why I did not provide him with enough information. He did not take any precautions in-game to deal with an alleged invisible spellcaster.
4. He believes that had I told him the Evard's effect was a magical trap, he would have attempted to disarm a rooftop trap while hanging from a rope rather than succumb to its effects.
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The Thayan Menace
First Post
My Arguments
1. I assumed that a veteran player would know that magical traps were triggered by the description I provided and, although I could have been more detailed, I provided enough information for any rogue to have a reasonable idea of what had happened. Furthermore, the PC made absolutely no attempt to investigate the nature of these effects.
2. With the exception of a select few magical items, the overwhelming majority of spell wards have Search/Disable DCs. Assuming the tentacles were undefeatable "evil magic" was a tactical mistake on his part.
3. There was very little reason to automatically suspect an invisible caster. There were no verbal cues and, even in the event of silent metamagic, the party did absolutely nothing to search for a suspect mage.
4. Finally, I find it hard to believe that he would have automatically searched for a rooftop trap while hanging from a rope ... period. It's an akward position to be in, and, frankly, most rogues are not that cautious in every situation.
1. I assumed that a veteran player would know that magical traps were triggered by the description I provided and, although I could have been more detailed, I provided enough information for any rogue to have a reasonable idea of what had happened. Furthermore, the PC made absolutely no attempt to investigate the nature of these effects.
2. With the exception of a select few magical items, the overwhelming majority of spell wards have Search/Disable DCs. Assuming the tentacles were undefeatable "evil magic" was a tactical mistake on his part.
3. There was very little reason to automatically suspect an invisible caster. There were no verbal cues and, even in the event of silent metamagic, the party did absolutely nothing to search for a suspect mage.
4. Finally, I find it hard to believe that he would have automatically searched for a rooftop trap while hanging from a rope ... period. It's an akward position to be in, and, frankly, most rogues are not that cautious in every situation.
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JRRNeiklot
First Post
Tell him to suck it up. Life (for the player or the character) isn't fair. Deal with it.
Endur
First Post
So apologize. It does not take very long to say "I'm sorry I hurt your feelings."
Is there is some reason why you are unable to apologize?
As the GM, the adventure is your responsibility. You should not blame the dice or the players for what happens. Take responsibility for your actions.
Remember its a game and you are running it. Anything that goes wrong is your responsibility.
And really, you did mess up. Never assume that all players will remember their character's abilities. Some players will remember everything, some players will not. Some of your characters will have 18+ int or 18+ wis or 18+ chr, almost none of your players will have those high stats -- they simply can't role play a character with those abilities, so you need to adjust for that. As a GM, you should feel free to toss out hints that the players can search for traps, etc. Or even go so far as to include their abilities in your boxed text descriptions, saying, "you find a door and the rogue searches for traps."
Is there is some reason why you are unable to apologize?
As the GM, the adventure is your responsibility. You should not blame the dice or the players for what happens. Take responsibility for your actions.
Remember its a game and you are running it. Anything that goes wrong is your responsibility.
And really, you did mess up. Never assume that all players will remember their character's abilities. Some players will remember everything, some players will not. Some of your characters will have 18+ int or 18+ wis or 18+ chr, almost none of your players will have those high stats -- they simply can't role play a character with those abilities, so you need to adjust for that. As a GM, you should feel free to toss out hints that the players can search for traps, etc. Or even go so far as to include their abilities in your boxed text descriptions, saying, "you find a door and the rogue searches for traps."
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