unfortunately not Finally settled, sunder and attacks of opp

[KarinsDad]

Perhaps part of the issue might be: "Why does it say 'melee attack' when it could have said 'standard action'?"

Try this: Could a ranged attack sunder a weapon? Could a touch spell sunder a weapon? Could a grapple touch attack sunder a weapon? Etc.

It could have said both if it meant both. This argument holds no water.

 

[Nail]

I dont state that it isnt, i state that it may be a standard action, but the if the text says how you can use it.

As I've remarked before, this statement of yours has boggled me too.

Casting a spell is a standard action. Can I cast a spell as an AoO?

 

[Nail]

It could have said both if it meant both. This argument holds no water.

This isn't an argument. This is an attempt to understand why someone would write 'melee attack'. After all, there are other kinds of attacks!

The 'main' discussion is separate from this point.

 

[bestone]

Short "and semi-relevant" explanation of what i mean. Supernatural abilities are standard actions, and ARE standard actions unless otherwise noted in the text.

Lets take mm 4, p 72, fang golem

Verdant surge (su) Any creature hit by a fang golem's melee attack or spikes takes a -2 penalty on saving throws made to resist the effects of a druid spell or a spell or ability from a fey creature.

This particular ability doesnt state any effect in the type of action, So by the table, this supernatural ability is a standard action.

Now what your saying is, they have to be able to make a standard action for this to apply? no of course not. The text of it tells you how they apply it. So the fang golem could even make a melee attack on an attack of opportunity, and have this supernatural ability (which supernatural abilities are standard actions) apply.

So what im saying is, regardless of what its "classified" as, the text tells you how you actually use it. And the rules for sunder as written, as i read them tell me that i can use a melee attack to sunder.

This is what i meant

 

[bestone]

As I've remarked before, this statement of yours has boggled me too.

Casting a spell is a standard action. Can I cast a spell as an AoO?

Not unless under the casting it stated "as a melee attack you may cast a spell"

Your really just putting words into my mouth here, making up statements out of things i say

If the text of the spell said it was a swift action, but casting a spell is a standard action, you cast it as a swift action.

I never once claimed that on a aoo you can use any standard action

 

[Hypersmurf]

The text for the Melee Attack action states that you can use a melee attack to strike a creature. I don't agree that this contradicts a definition elsewhere that the Melee Attack action is a standard action. Since both can be true (You take a standard action, and doing so allows you to use a melee attack to strike a creature), text-over-tables isn't necessary to satisfy all the rules.

No Sunders in AoOs. No Melee Attacks in AoOs.

No Attack actions in AoOs, and I agree completely.

Melee attacks aren't solely found in the Attack action, however.

An AoO lets you make a single melee attack against the creature that provokes it. Footnote 7 says that this attack can be replaced with a Trip, Grapple, or Disarm. An AoO doesn't state that you may attack the creature's weapon, nor does Sunder carry Footnote 7.

The AoO doesn't go anywhere near the Attack action... which is, certainly, a standard action. It simply allows a melee attack against the creature.

If you want to make a melee attack against a weapon, you need to use Sunder... and since the AoO allows you to attack a creature (not a weapon), and Sunder doesn't carry footnote 7, the only recourse is to take the Sunder standard action... which can't be done outside your own turn.

Neither, of course, can the Attack action. But we're not using the Attack action when an AoO is provoked.

-Hyp.

 

[Nail]

So you're saying that sunder is like this?

Sunder(Su) Any creature hit by a melee weapon attack has its weapon damaged.

 

[bestone]

So you're saying that sunder is like this?

Sunder(Su) Any creature hit by a melee weapon attack has its weapon damaged.

I dont even know where/how your drawing that conclusion, are you misreading everything i say? no i say if you want to sunder then As a melee attack YOU CAN make a sunder

where is this unclear? quote me on saying that any creature hit has its weapon damaged?

 

[bestone]

If you want to make a melee attack against a weapon, you need to use Sunder... and since the AoO allows you to attack a creature (not a weapon), and Sunder doesn't carry footnote 7, the only recourse is to take the Sunder standard action... which can't be done outside your own turn.

Neither, of course, can the Attack action. But we're not using the Attack action when an AoO is provoked.

-Hyp.

This is where we disagree, and I dont think you have to proof to claim yourself un-disputedly right (and im not saying you did)

Your saying you have to be able to use the sunder standard action, for the text to take place, right?

Im saying i read no-where thats true. As i read it, If i want to sunder, i read the text under the special attacks section, And i read the sunder entry. And i read the rules under sunder and that tells me how i can use it.

And i deduce by the text, that it says i can use it as a melee attack.

If you want to prove me wrong, You can just quote a reference somewhere that states you must have a standard action free to perform a special attack that requires one, or anything along those lines.

Cause as far as i know (and you havent proved me wrong yet) The rules on how to use a special attack are listed in thier text, and how you apply them is listed there as well.

And from what i take from sunders text i've written a million times, and wont write again, but you get where i draw my conclusions.

 

[KarinsDad]

This isn't an argument. This is an attempt to understand why someone would write 'melee attack'. After all, there are other kinds of attacks!

In the Special Attacks section, WotC wrote Melee Attack for Disarm, Grapple, Sunder, and Trip.

They wrote Standard Action for Aid Another, Bull Rush, Feint, Overrun, and Turn Undead.

They wrote Full Round Action for Charge.

They wrote Ranged Touch Attack for Throw Splash Weapon.

They did not specify for Two Weapon Fighting, but other sections of rules (not just tables) specify it as part of a Full Round Attack.


The rules within the Special Attack section are crystal clear. One of them just happens to disagree with the table. It matters not WHY they wrote Melee Attack for Sunder, the fact remains that they did write it.


The key here is that any rule that states that something is a Melee Attack, means that it follows ALL of the melee attack rules: AoO, Reach, Damage, Criticals, etc. unless a written rule specifiies otherwise.


I totally understand that the table indicates that a Sunder is a Standard Action. It also indicates that Melee Attacks are a Standard Action.