Also at this point in the poll Vancian is ahead of Non-Vancian by 5 points. Since people can vote for both this sounds to me that a strong majority is against Non-Vanican only. This sounds to me like most people want a Vancian Wizard, but many would also like to include a non-Vancian Sorceror and/or Warlock. It makes me hopeful that 5e is headed in the direction of being inclusive instead of exclusive at least where things don't mix well together.
Uniting the Editions, Part 3 - Poll
Also at this point in the poll Vancian is ahead of Non-Vancian by 5 points. Since people can vote for both this sounds to me that a strong majority is against Non-Vanican only. This sounds to me like most people want a Vancian Wizard, but many would also like to include a non-Vancian Sorceror and/or Warlock. It makes me hopeful that 5e is headed in the direction of being inclusive instead of exclusive at least where things don't mix well together.
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing
Hard to say...I may or may not use any of these. It depends on the style of the campaign I happen to be running, and how experienced my players are.
But I will say this: if skills and feats only exist in sidebar form, I'll probably just stick with 3.5E.
But I will say this: if skills and feats only exist in sidebar form, I'll probably just stick with 3.5E.
S
Sunseeker
Guest
I voted for Action Points mostly because I really like the concept that every so often a character is able to pull a little more oomph out of their pocket for an important fight/event, making for an incredibly epic moment. Though I would probably move them into "daily" type abilities. Epic moments should be truly epic, and being able to have an action point every encounter might be a bit much.
I voted for Healing Surges because I like the concept, but not so much the execution. As above, I believe characters should at times be able to cheat fate and pull off extraordinary escapes and recoveries. I don't like Surges tied into healing, it just feels artificial. I'd rather players had few Surges to make for rare, but incredible epic moments.
I voted for both Vancian and non-vancian systems. I believe that both systems are very functional, and there are enough types of casters in D&D to easily allow different ones to utilize different systems. Perhaps Wizards would use vancian magic, and Sorcerers would use a "powers" at-will, encounter, daily system.
Critical hits are a must. There's a 20 on that die for a reason. Critical fumbles are well...a bit of give and take. No real penalties for them means they might as well not exist, but penalties can easily be too heavy-handed as well.
I like Prestiege Classes and I like Paragon Paths, and I would like to see a compromise between the ability to pick up certain feats that allow you to become a Knight of the Rosebush as well as some "default" system that provides a higher-tier to your base class. I don't feel players should ever have to be anything other than the class they chose at level one to be effective at what they want to do(ala pathfinder class design). But I do feel that the option should be available largely for flavor or customization.
IE: a player should be able to be Rogue 30 as easily as they could be Rogue 7/Night Stalker 5/Shadowdancer 18. While they may have significantly different abilities in the end, players should be able to stick with what they like as much as they should be able to try out new things without totally rerolling.
I like saving throws as much as I like NADs, they serve two similar, but different functions and if I had my way, I would have both in my ideal system. Direct attacks, be they magic or mundane should be against NADs. Indirect attacks, such as blasts and explosions, should allow for saves.
I like skills, I believe they put down in words a way for players to identify ways to solve a problem. I may not think Dexterity would unlock a door, but if I see that the book says Dexterity determines my skill in Lockpicking, I can connect the dots that Dexterity makes my fingers more nimble and thus, better at handling sensitive tools; than if I just had to guess until my DM said "that one".
I also like feats, I think they are an important level of customization. We just need to make the default math better and get rid of 99.9% of the "math feats" and bake them into class/theme/background/role features. IE: Taking the Slayer background and the Mercenary theme along with the Fighter class increases your damage and to-hit. Taking the Guardian theme with the Devout Protector background with the Paladin class gives you the defender aura, a bonus to saves/AC/NADs, and better AoO.
There would be some minor feats that may give flavorful situational bonuses to hit/damage/defenses, but math feats would by and large be eliminated in favor of class features that are automatically delivered through package choices.
Feats would remain the realm of interesting and flavorful customization, such as getting your character wings or "Clever Tail" or other interesting, creative bits and pieces to allow you to better define yourself by your race, class, background, theme, or role.
I voted for Healing Surges because I like the concept, but not so much the execution. As above, I believe characters should at times be able to cheat fate and pull off extraordinary escapes and recoveries. I don't like Surges tied into healing, it just feels artificial. I'd rather players had few Surges to make for rare, but incredible epic moments.
I voted for both Vancian and non-vancian systems. I believe that both systems are very functional, and there are enough types of casters in D&D to easily allow different ones to utilize different systems. Perhaps Wizards would use vancian magic, and Sorcerers would use a "powers" at-will, encounter, daily system.
Critical hits are a must. There's a 20 on that die for a reason. Critical fumbles are well...a bit of give and take. No real penalties for them means they might as well not exist, but penalties can easily be too heavy-handed as well.
I like Prestiege Classes and I like Paragon Paths, and I would like to see a compromise between the ability to pick up certain feats that allow you to become a Knight of the Rosebush as well as some "default" system that provides a higher-tier to your base class. I don't feel players should ever have to be anything other than the class they chose at level one to be effective at what they want to do(ala pathfinder class design). But I do feel that the option should be available largely for flavor or customization.
IE: a player should be able to be Rogue 30 as easily as they could be Rogue 7/Night Stalker 5/Shadowdancer 18. While they may have significantly different abilities in the end, players should be able to stick with what they like as much as they should be able to try out new things without totally rerolling.
I like saving throws as much as I like NADs, they serve two similar, but different functions and if I had my way, I would have both in my ideal system. Direct attacks, be they magic or mundane should be against NADs. Indirect attacks, such as blasts and explosions, should allow for saves.
I like skills, I believe they put down in words a way for players to identify ways to solve a problem. I may not think Dexterity would unlock a door, but if I see that the book says Dexterity determines my skill in Lockpicking, I can connect the dots that Dexterity makes my fingers more nimble and thus, better at handling sensitive tools; than if I just had to guess until my DM said "that one".
I also like feats, I think they are an important level of customization. We just need to make the default math better and get rid of 99.9% of the "math feats" and bake them into class/theme/background/role features. IE: Taking the Slayer background and the Mercenary theme along with the Fighter class increases your damage and to-hit. Taking the Guardian theme with the Devout Protector background with the Paladin class gives you the defender aura, a bonus to saves/AC/NADs, and better AoO.
There would be some minor feats that may give flavorful situational bonuses to hit/damage/defenses, but math feats would by and large be eliminated in favor of class features that are automatically delivered through package choices.
Feats would remain the realm of interesting and flavorful customization, such as getting your character wings or "Clever Tail" or other interesting, creative bits and pieces to allow you to better define yourself by your race, class, background, theme, or role.
Great Post, I agree with 98% of what you have there. When you say NAD that's Non-Armor Defense, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Options for an Action Point would be great. When I DM 3.5 I give out 1-3 tokens per session that are given to players who got the highest rolls on a d20. And yes, I did allow a player to cash in their token to grant an ally a reroll. House Rules can be great, eh?
On Healing Surges, I like the basic concept but not exactly how it works or how often it is granted (some classes get too many IMHO). I propose a new House Rule in my game, call it a new version of a Healing Surge, or more accurately...
“After Battle Recovery”, LOL just a working title. (AND not usable during a combat; only Clerics & Healing potions & the like can do that with this house rule).
The way it could work, after a combat is over, you can choose to ‘Recover’ 1d12 HP +1 HP per Character Level (or whatever your Hit Die is; using a Barbarian character as an example). Add a d12 every 4 Character Levels, so 2d12+5 at LV 5, 3d12+9 at LV 9, etc. This die would be based on your Class's Hit Dice (we'll use Pathfinder Hit Dice for this example): d12 for a Barbarian, d10 for a Fighter/Paladin, d8 for Cleric, d6 for a Rogue & so on, with each class getting a minimum of 3 'Recoveries'. Sure, this means more HP 'Recovery' for fightery types but they usually sustain more punishment & being naturally tougher, would be able to shake off such 'battle fatigue' easier. But other classes get Recoveries too, just fewer of them and not for as many HP.....
Furthermore, you reduce the type of dice used for each subsequent combat, representing a declining ability to endure battle fatigue, cuts & bruises, general wear and tear of your body. After the next combat your Barbarian only gets d10s… 3rd combat, d8, etc. By the 5th combat, the Barbarian is down to 4-sided dice and not regaining much at all, even at higher levels. a Fighter would get 4 such Recoveries (d10, d8, d6, d4). A Rogue only 3 (d6, d6, d4). Then you would have to camp and rest to reset your “Recovery” cycle (& it would make sense that you get some healing for camping/resting, of course, say 1HP/LV + CON bonus). This whole idea differs from 4E Healing Surges in a few ways. First of, you get less Recoveries than you would Healing Surges. Also, Healing Surges or for 1/4 of your total HP; my idea is for less and further declines each time until your last Recovery is used. And it's more than likely that my idea for Recoveries while useful, wouldn't get you back up to full HP very often... part of the idea.
Adventuring parties that had a Cleric among them would certainly fare better, be able to get healed DURING a battle (via Spells) and wouldn’t have to camp as often. AND maybe a Cleric could augment your “After Battle Recovery” by adding an extra die to another's Recovery 3 times/day + WIS modifier, representing "Being under the care of a Healer". Just my 2CP. WotC, feel free to use this idea, heheh. I'm planning on using it in future 3.5 and/or Pathfinder games.
On Healing Surges, I like the basic concept but not exactly how it works or how often it is granted (some classes get too many IMHO). I propose a new House Rule in my game, call it a new version of a Healing Surge, or more accurately...
“After Battle Recovery”, LOL just a working title. (AND not usable during a combat; only Clerics & Healing potions & the like can do that with this house rule).
The way it could work, after a combat is over, you can choose to ‘Recover’ 1d12 HP +1 HP per Character Level (or whatever your Hit Die is; using a Barbarian character as an example). Add a d12 every 4 Character Levels, so 2d12+5 at LV 5, 3d12+9 at LV 9, etc. This die would be based on your Class's Hit Dice (we'll use Pathfinder Hit Dice for this example): d12 for a Barbarian, d10 for a Fighter/Paladin, d8 for Cleric, d6 for a Rogue & so on, with each class getting a minimum of 3 'Recoveries'. Sure, this means more HP 'Recovery' for fightery types but they usually sustain more punishment & being naturally tougher, would be able to shake off such 'battle fatigue' easier. But other classes get Recoveries too, just fewer of them and not for as many HP.....
Furthermore, you reduce the type of dice used for each subsequent combat, representing a declining ability to endure battle fatigue, cuts & bruises, general wear and tear of your body. After the next combat your Barbarian only gets d10s… 3rd combat, d8, etc. By the 5th combat, the Barbarian is down to 4-sided dice and not regaining much at all, even at higher levels. a Fighter would get 4 such Recoveries (d10, d8, d6, d4). A Rogue only 3 (d6, d6, d4). Then you would have to camp and rest to reset your “Recovery” cycle (& it would make sense that you get some healing for camping/resting, of course, say 1HP/LV + CON bonus). This whole idea differs from 4E Healing Surges in a few ways. First of, you get less Recoveries than you would Healing Surges. Also, Healing Surges or for 1/4 of your total HP; my idea is for less and further declines each time until your last Recovery is used. And it's more than likely that my idea for Recoveries while useful, wouldn't get you back up to full HP very often... part of the idea.
Adventuring parties that had a Cleric among them would certainly fare better, be able to get healed DURING a battle (via Spells) and wouldn’t have to camp as often. AND maybe a Cleric could augment your “After Battle Recovery” by adding an extra die to another's Recovery 3 times/day + WIS modifier, representing "Being under the care of a Healer". Just my 2CP. WotC, feel free to use this idea, heheh. I'm planning on using it in future 3.5 and/or Pathfinder games.
Critical Fumbles and Hits, No, because characters don't like it when it happens to them. It also messes up my game because my monsters are challenging to the players and deadly with critical hits. Definitely NO to a critical hit on a natural 19 and 20.
Feats, Yes, as long as there are no duplicate feats. Non-casters should earn level-up feats with the same frequency as casters learn spells and prayers.
Gender Ability Score Maxes, No.
Healing Surges, O.k. as long as you explain as the number of potions, scrolls, and spells of healing that are prepared during an extended rest for every party member. When a healer heals someone during an encounter, it should expend a healing surge.
I like 4th edition's ability modifier+1/2 level applied to skill and power to-hit and damage.
I do not like automatic hit damage and half damage. How would a player like it if I said he or she automatically took 30 hit points of damage without a chance to save or use a defense?
I do not like any Vancian, must rest and re-memorize spells etc. If the player knows a power, the player should be able to chose that power from the entire list and cast that power right away. I do however like encounter and daily restrictions of powers. We'll explain them as power charges. I don't want casters casting burst spells every round. We learned this from the old D&D video games just how powerful burst powers are.
PC's should craft magic items at a gold piece cost. This will make Craft Wood, Craft Potion, Scribe Scroll important to gain as skills. It will also allow casters and craftsmen to bond and provide fun plots for campaigns if they must find things or seek to craft things in certain places.
Prestige Classes, no. In fact, make only 4 primary classes Fighter, Rogue, Cleric and Wizard and make all sub-classes a multi-class of those 4 such as Monk, Druid, Ninja, Witch.. etc..
No racial level limits, all classes and multi-classes should be limited to 30th level. After that, make them immortal characters.
Saving throws yes, defense rolls yes. Make it an Intelligence versus Will roll when a wizard casts at an enemy. But when an enemy must end a condition, make it a saving throw(1d20+will defense-10) versus the DC(10+caster's intelligence)
In other words, use Pathfinder's saving throw versus DC system when the victim must end an ongoing effect. Use 4th Edition's system when an caster attacks an enemy.
Skills, O.K. as long as you weed them out. No 2 skills should do the same thing. No skill should be like a feat or a spell or a prayer. That means that we've got to seriously think about removing the Know Skill or Knock spells so that Wizards must rely on Thieves. Also, we might want to remove Create Food & Water type spells if we are to rely on Survival Skills, Rangers, and Foraging skills.
System Shock, maybe in relation to Raise Dead. Explain your idea for it.
No going back to THAC0 and long tables for anything. Let's standardize experience points level-ups, power/feat gains, encounter and daily power restrictions and saving throw bonuses across all races and classes. Reduce the long tables that nobody can memorize.
No to weapon speed.
Yes to a possible strike and parry system to add detail to weapons combat.
Feats, Yes, as long as there are no duplicate feats. Non-casters should earn level-up feats with the same frequency as casters learn spells and prayers.
Gender Ability Score Maxes, No.
Healing Surges, O.k. as long as you explain as the number of potions, scrolls, and spells of healing that are prepared during an extended rest for every party member. When a healer heals someone during an encounter, it should expend a healing surge.
I like 4th edition's ability modifier+1/2 level applied to skill and power to-hit and damage.
I do not like automatic hit damage and half damage. How would a player like it if I said he or she automatically took 30 hit points of damage without a chance to save or use a defense?
I do not like any Vancian, must rest and re-memorize spells etc. If the player knows a power, the player should be able to chose that power from the entire list and cast that power right away. I do however like encounter and daily restrictions of powers. We'll explain them as power charges. I don't want casters casting burst spells every round. We learned this from the old D&D video games just how powerful burst powers are.
PC's should craft magic items at a gold piece cost. This will make Craft Wood, Craft Potion, Scribe Scroll important to gain as skills. It will also allow casters and craftsmen to bond and provide fun plots for campaigns if they must find things or seek to craft things in certain places.
Prestige Classes, no. In fact, make only 4 primary classes Fighter, Rogue, Cleric and Wizard and make all sub-classes a multi-class of those 4 such as Monk, Druid, Ninja, Witch.. etc..
No racial level limits, all classes and multi-classes should be limited to 30th level. After that, make them immortal characters.
Saving throws yes, defense rolls yes. Make it an Intelligence versus Will roll when a wizard casts at an enemy. But when an enemy must end a condition, make it a saving throw(1d20+will defense-10) versus the DC(10+caster's intelligence)
In other words, use Pathfinder's saving throw versus DC system when the victim must end an ongoing effect. Use 4th Edition's system when an caster attacks an enemy.
Skills, O.K. as long as you weed them out. No 2 skills should do the same thing. No skill should be like a feat or a spell or a prayer. That means that we've got to seriously think about removing the Know Skill or Knock spells so that Wizards must rely on Thieves. Also, we might want to remove Create Food & Water type spells if we are to rely on Survival Skills, Rangers, and Foraging skills.
System Shock, maybe in relation to Raise Dead. Explain your idea for it.
No going back to THAC0 and long tables for anything. Let's standardize experience points level-ups, power/feat gains, encounter and daily power restrictions and saving throw bonuses across all races and classes. Reduce the long tables that nobody can memorize.
No to weapon speed.
Yes to a possible strike and parry system to add detail to weapons combat.
Steely_Dan
First Post
I only voted for Critical Hits, Non-Vancian Magic, Saving Throws, and Vancian Magic; I want all the other options to be optional.
Action Points is one I really don't hope to see (and the PP trigger, well, I don't want PPs, but that's another story), I have no problem with a bonus Standard action every encounter or what-have-you, but I do not want every class to use anything point-related in D&D.
Action Points is one I really don't hope to see (and the PP trigger, well, I don't want PPs, but that's another story), I have no problem with a bonus Standard action every encounter or what-have-you, but I do not want every class to use anything point-related in D&D.
Steely_Dan
First Post
S
Sunseeker
Guest
It's pretty easy to do that in a stop-action response system forum such as this. Especially when folks can get so charged on this subject.
