Upgrading Monsters to Elite - Can Anyone Help?

[AbdulAlhazred]

The new damage expressions are actually only found in one of the recent errata to the DMG. If you go dig up the 10/5/2010 consolidated errata they are in there. I don't have a DMK, so maybe the table is in there too, but I don't think it is. A good rule of thumb is 8+level damage (so 11 for a level 3 is pretty much right on). Now, if Vernon is getting CA with most attacks and adding +1d8 once a round to an attack that's averaging 2 extra points to each of his 2 attacks per round, so figure that in. At that point roughly 2d6+3 for each attack, plus the 1d8 for one of them for CA gives you 4d6+6+1d8 or 24.5 average on his attack routine if he hits twice, and he's still getting the 1d8 for CA even if he only hits once. That should be pretty good. So maybe 2d6+3 on the short sword and 3d4+3 on the bite for instance.

You could make the encounter shift and attack power a recharge 6 or 5,6. Figure he'll be around say 4 rounds. A 6 probably won't really make much difference, especially if it is recharging when bloodied. 5,6 will be OK though as it isn't going to be really stronger than his normal attack routine, just more interesting.

Personally I'd go with the 96 hit points, yes. I always get the feeling that elites tend to have a few more than they really need anyway.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Personally I'd go with the 96 hit points, yes. I always get the feeling that elites tend to have a few more than they really need anyway.

I'd also go with 96 hp. I believe they erratted the DMG so that it was just double hp.

Also I might give it a reacharge power that somehow lets him get combat advantage (daze, knock prone, or just grant CA) so that he does not have to rely on allies for the flank.

 

[Pickles JG]

The new damage expressions are actually only found in one of the recent errata to the DMG. If you go dig up the 10/5/2010 consolidated errata they are in there. I don't have a DMK, so maybe the table is in there too, but I don't think it is. A good rule of thumb is 8+level damage (so 11 for a level 3 is pretty much right on). Now, if Vernon is getting CA with most attacks and adding +1d8 once a round to an attack that's averaging 2 extra points to each of his 2 attacks per round, so figure that in. At that point roughly 2d6+3 for each attack, plus the 1d8 for one of them for CA gives you 4d6+6+1d8 or 24.5 average on his attack routine if he hits twice, and he's still getting the 1d8 for CA even if he only hits once. That should be pretty good. So maybe 2d6+3 on the short sword and 3d4+3 on the bite for instance.

You could make the encounter shift and attack power a recharge 6 or 5,6. Figure he'll be around say 4 rounds. A 6 probably won't really make much difference, especially if it is recharging when bloodied. 5,6 will be OK though as it isn't going to be really stronger than his normal attack routine, just more interesting.

Personally I'd go with the 96 hit points, yes. I always get the feeling that elites tend to have a few more than they really need anyway.

I would not go with recharge 6 it's too swingy (except on a huge pack). I use 5,6 or make it recharge on bloodied.

I also do not figure in sneak attack damage in the expressions- the monster books do not. Sneak attack is instead of a high damage encounter power though so if you add one of those you can discount the bonus a bit.

As an a elite the monster fills the space of 2 other monsters so its damage output needs to be about twice as high - usually through making more attacks, like the sword/bite thing. Often it's worth forcing these to be split over 2 targets to avoid making focus fire by the monster too easy.
I would make the ongoing damage 5 - 2 seems too fiddly to worry about just keep the overall damage down. This also encourages th rats to split its attacks out (or prevents an overwhelming nova on one character).

96 HP is plenty as are defences of 17 15 16 14. An elite against 3 players is close to a solo vs a full party - so while I agree that elites could be a bit lighter in XP this is more like a Solo encounter. I normally use elites for monsters I wnat to stick around as standard ones can get focus fired very fast. This should not be a problem with 3 players so you might like to use 150% hp for elites & 250% or so for Solo - getting OT though.

Disease has been clarified - the rules are scattered about in O4e but very clear in Essentials. Attacks that "cause" disease now expose you to disease. At the end of the encounter you save against every disease you have been exposed to & catch them if you fail. You only save once per disease ie exposure does not stack with itself.

Of course you are welcome to change this if you want a particularly virulent or fast acting strain.

 

[orcmonk220]

I'll definately look up the errata on the monsters, and likely print them out. I have to pick up the DMG2 at some point, but currently looking at the PH2 to flesh out the classes and races I want in my campaign (druids, bards, sorcerers, half-orcs and gnomes mostly).

Are dire rats minions? I thought monsters could only summon minions. You might be better off just adding them into the encounter (as the fight starts to swing to the PCs' side, of course).

And good point about more minions meaning more flanking opportunities.

Seems like you're right. Dire Rats are brutes, and monsters can only summon minions. I've got rid of that move anyway, but I'll likely throw in a handful of Giant Rat minions in order to give him some flanking and force the players to not concentrate their entire firepower on Vernon. Maybe 4, making it a 400XP battle...

So maybe 2d6+3 on the short sword and 3d4+3 on the bite for instance.

I'm going to make the Short Sword 2d6+4, but I think I'll keep the bite at 2d4+3. As he'll possibly be making 2 bites per turn, with 5 ongoing instead of 2, I think the dice damage can b a little lower.

Also I might give it a reacharge power that somehow lets him get combat advantage (daze, knock prone, or just grant CA) so that he does not have to rely on allies for the flank.

I've written in an ability that grants CA which isn't a recharge power, but is definately dependant on condition. It's basically an attack from the rubbish with his Short Sword, so basically he'd disappear then strike an enemy when they get close and unaware that he's there.

I would make the ongoing damage 5 - 2 seems too fiddly to worry about just keep the overall damage down. This also encourages th rats to split its attacks out (or prevents an overwhelming nova on one character).

I think I'm going to have 5 ongoing the first time a player is hit by a bite, then 2 for every time they get bit afterwards. Is that a little too weak?

This should not be a problem with 3 players so you might like to use 150% hp for elites & 250% or so for Solo - getting OT though.

I would do that normally I think, but I'd like to have this guy stay around a while because he's the end-of-adventure boss.

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So far, I've got this as the character. Please tell me what you think and let me know if you think it'd work.

Vernon Atcher, Wererat (hybrid form). Level 3 Elite Skirmisher (XP 300).
Medium natural humanoid (shapechanger).

Initiative +7. Senses Perception +7; low-light vision.
HP 96; bloodied 48.
Regeneration 5 (if the wererat takes damage from a silver weapon, its regeneration doesn‘t function on its next turn).
AC 17; Fortitude 15, Reflex 16, Will 13.
Saving Throw +2.
Immune filth fever (see below).
Speed 6, climb 4 (not in human form).
Action Points 1.

[melee] Short Sword and Bite (standard, at-will) - Disease, Weapon.
+8 vs. AC; 2d6 + 4 damage, and +8 vs. AC; 2d4 + 3 damage, and the target takes 5 ongoing damage (2 ongoing damage after first time hit with Bite, save ends) and contracts filth fever.

[melee] Short Sword (standard, at-will) - Weapon.
+8 vs. AC; 2d6 + 4 damage.

[melee] Bite (minor, at-will) - Disease.
+8 vs. AC; 2d4 + 3 damage, and the target takes 5 ongoing damage (2 ongoing damage after first time hit with a bite attack, save ends) and contracts filth fever.

[melee] Darting Bite (minor, at-will) - Disease.
Vernon Achter shifts 1 square, then makes a bite attack.

[melee] Leaping Attack (standard, encounter, [5][6] recharge) - Weapon.
Vernon Achter shifts up to 6 squares, making 1 short sword attack at any point during his movement.

[melee] Vermin Strike (triggered, when first bloodied) - Weapon.
Vernon Achter shifts up to 8 squares, making up to 3 short sword attack at any point during his movement.

Change Shape (minor, at-will) - Polymorph.
Vernon Achter can alter its physical form to appear as a dire rat or a unique human. It looses its bite attack in human form.

Combat Advantage (1/turn).
Vernon Achter deals an extra 1d8 damage on melee attacks against any target it has combat advantage against.

Trash Dive (1/turn).
If Vernon Achter attacks from a rubbish pile using his short sword, he has combat advantage against his target.

Alignment Evil. Languages Common.
Skills Bluff +6, Stealth +10, Streetwise +6, Thievery +10.

Str 10 (+1), Dex 18 (+5), Wis 12 (+2).
Con 16 (+4), Int 10 (+1), Cha 11 (+1).

Equipment cloak, short sword.

 

[Rune]

I think I'm going to have 5 ongoing the first time a player is hit by a bite, then 2 for every time they get bit afterwards. Is that a little too weak?

Do you mean that you intend for the ongoing damage to stack? If so, that might be over-powered. If you mean simply mean that the first bite is the only one to deal the full 5 ongoing damage, it might be a little weak. Either way, I think it is needlessly complicated. The ongoing 5 damage with every bite should be fine. It doesn't stack, but having the bite deliver it as a minor action means the wererat can choose between delivering it to two foes in a round, or attacking one foe with a sword and two bites (and, of course, there's still the action point).

 

[Nullzone]

Without really getting a good look at the adventure itself to get more context for the flavor of this character, or knowing exactly what your party makeup is, here's a basic idea for what I'd do. The budget for the elite and his minions leaves enough for a handful of other creatures being available in combat right from the start for a standard party size. I'd suggest a few brutes (dire rats) and artillery (not entirely sure what to fill in here).

I suggest being very deliberate in describing attempts to attack the rat swarms with melee/ranged as there simply being too many rats for a single arrow/axe/sword to have any effect; they'll all need to be taken out simultaneously (aka close/area attacks).


Edit: Wow I shoud really refresh pages when I leave them alone for a long time before replying, missed a half page of replies!

Your build on the last page isn't too bad, definitely has more flavor, but I think may suffer from TOO many options. Elites need a few tricks to pull out of their bag but if every round they do something completely different, it leaves the PCs hard pressed to react to his actions tactically.